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The Converter
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| Joined: | 9 Dec 2008 |
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Posted: 9 Dec 2008 06:36 pm |
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I am interested in feedback from dieters about dieting and the obesity crisis. I have spent many years studying this issue. I set out to write a diet book that would identify the cause and present a cure that was permanent. The book is still being compiled but I believe I have identified the cause and we all know that the cure is eating the correct amount of calories everyday for the rest of your life. There's a problem with that. Most people don't do it. Why do you suppose that is?
If you are fat and you have been fat for some time why do you suppose that was and is?
Why do you think most Americans don't create a proper energy balance so that they will maintain a healthy body weight?
In you opinion is it a matter of can't or is it more of a matter of won't.
Do you think compliance is a greater problem for dieters that their grasp of weight loss mechanics.
Who or what would you say is most responsible for the obesity crisis?
1. All the fat people who buy and eat unhealthy food.
2. The food companies.
3. The government.
Would you like to see the government intervene to curb the obesity crisis? If so why. If not why not.
Do you think obesity is the result of gluttony? Yes? No? Why? Why not?
Do you think gluttony is a sin? Yes? No? Why? Why not?
Do you think parents of fat kids are child abusers? Yes? No? Why? Why not?
I hope this sparks some discourse on the subject and help to provide some insight into you own personal situations.
The Converter
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sweet kisses
Senior Member
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Posted: 9 Dec 2008 07:21 pm |
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Well, I've never been like obese or anything, but I've been overweight which I think is almost just as bad health-wise...so does that qualify me to answer this?
Why do you think most Americans don't create a proper energy balance so that they will maintain a healthy body weight?
I know for me all the tasiest foods are high-cal and unhealthy and it's just sooo easy to be sedentary in this day and age. Like how now to have fun you don't have to run around outside and play games--there are game systems that do all that for you and cars that take you anywhere you want to and things like that.
Do you think compliance is a greater problem for dieters that their grasp of weight loss mechanics. I think its compliance. Information on how to have a healthy lifestyle is just about everywhere, people just aren't following it.
In you opinion is it a matter of can't or is it more of a matter of won't.
Won't. I think the people on this site are proof of that.
Who or what would you say is most responsible for the obesity crisis?
1. All the fat people who buy and eat unhealthy food.
2. The food companies.
3. The government.
1 and 2. But mostly 1. The food companies are the ones that provide us with the food we eat, but what they provide depends entirely what we choose to eat. Most American's choose to eat a lot of sugary, fatty, bad-for-you-foods, so that's what the food companies stock our shelves with. If we want more healthy foods on our shelves we have to choose those foods. The companies would then realize that they aren't going to make as much money selling cookies as bananas and will change their buisness strategy to accomodate that. Next thing you know, there won't be so many cookies and lots of bananas everywhere. (Ahhh the power of supply and demand. ) Ultimately, its up to us to have the self-discipline to make the right choices--everything else is just aftermath of that.
Would you like to see the government intervene to curb the obesity crisis? If so why. If not why not.
I don't think there's a whole lot they can do. I mean, they can help with a couple of nudges in the right direction, but because of our government structure, they can't MAKE the American people take care of themselves. For example, I would like to see better side walks and more bike-lanes so people can rely less on cars and make those activities safer. I'd also like to see nutitional information posted in restaurants. That way, people have the resources to make better choices, but those choices are still up to them.
Do you think obesity is the result of gluttony? Yes? No? Why? Why not?
Do you think gluttony is a sin? Yes? No? Why? Why not?
Yes, obesity is in large part the result of gluttony. You don't get obese by eating to little, silly.  We've simply been eating way too much. I don't think gluttony is a SIN per se. I just think its a really bad choice we make that negatively affects our health and those around us.
Do you think parents of fat kids are child abusers? Yes? No? Why? Why not?
Bad parents? Yes. Child abusers? No.
I guess the general theme I find when answering these questions is yes, the environment we live in makes it more difficult than in the past to make the choices we need to be healthy. But it is by no means impossible and we have to have the personal responsibility to take care of our own bodies. Unfortunately, the majority of the population doesn't seem to be doing that. I hope this helps and good luck with your book. 
Last edited on 9 Dec 2008 09:24 pm by sweet kisses
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StuckSara
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 9 Dec 2008 07:51 pm |
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On the subject of why people don't create an energy balance- I think it all goes back to our evolution.
A lot of people will say that there is some gene that causes some to hold fat more easily than others because back in the day we needed it- food was scarce and every calorie counted.
I take that same logic and apply it to our behavior- not just our metabolism's behavior.
It seems people are constantly thinking about food and get excited for their next meal. This is considered a bad thing now that food is so plentiful, but it has been ingrained in us through thousands of years of necessity. We always had to think about food because we were always on the hunt for it, we needed it to live and were therefore constantly driven to find it.
I think this is why we hold food so high on our pleasure list- it tastes good and just looks good to our minds!
Obesity then comes into play because we still have minds reminiscent of cave men, but we live in a very productive society where we no longer need to look for it. So we think about food and eat it two seconds later. Then again, and again, and again.
I just think our survival instincts have not kept up with our innovativeness.
I think obesity could be gluttony- but that also seems subjective to me. Some people give gluttony a more broad definition than others. If you define it as "wanting more than you need", then yes, someone with obesity is gluttonous with food... as well are others that are still thin. I do not think this is a bad thing, or a sin. We only hurt ourselves by wanting more or different food than we need.
By that same logic though, wouldn't drinking a diet pop be gluttonous? It has nothing we need in it- we do not need it to survive at all, no calories or vitamins.
I don't think parents with obese children are child abusers. They do, however, have a responsibility to their children to teach them good eatting habbits and keep healthy food around the house. I think too many things are considered "child abuse" now, we're really soft. Again, it's just a matter of definiton. All parents make mistakes, some are just more obvious than others. If you apply child abuse broadly, then every parent at sometime has committed it. If you, like I do, consider child abuse to be when a parent intentionally harms their child, physically or mentally, then it is child abuse. If a parent thought "I'm gonna make my kid fat because it will be fun for me to laugh at them and make them feel like sh*t"- they would be child abusers.
Hope some of that helps! Good luck on your book!
By the way, I'm not obese or overweight... I didn't know if that would matter in your book or not. What's your name so when the book comes out I can read it?
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ShannonOfDoom
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 9 Dec 2008 09:10 pm |
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If you are fat and you have been fat for some time why do you suppose that was and is?
Misinformation, there is so much information out there on how to lose weight & the "right way" to do it, a lot of quick fixes too. I have tried & failed a lot of things, but for a long time I didn't even realise I am obese.
Why do you think most Americans don't create a proper energy balance so that they will maintain a healthy body weight?
I can't speak for Americans as I'm Australian but i can see our lifestyles becoming increasingly stagnant as working hours become longer, gym memberships become more expensive, our lives become busier.
In you opinion is it a matter of can't or is it more of a matter of won't.
I think its a matter of Don't know how
Do you think compliance is a greater problem for dieters that their grasp of weight loss mechanics.
It depends on the individual, for me it is definitely the latter.
Who or what would you say is most responsible for the obesity crisis?
1. All the fat people who buy and eat unhealthy food.
2. The food companies.
3. The government.
1 & 2...I think if it comes out of a plastic package, it's no good for you. I think the #%@&! people feed their children is appalling in particular.
Would you like to see the government intervene to curb the obesity crisis? If so why. If not why not.
The Australian government is actually doing quite a lot, from free exercise programs, Installing workout equipment in parks, a lot of anti obesity advertising (there's one with pat rafter encouraging everyone to get half an hour exercise every day & another about getting 2 serves of fruit & 5 serves of veg every day) & school lunches are often monitored for junk food.
Do you think obesity is the result of gluttony?
Yes in combination with wrong food choices, not many people become obese pigging out on green salad minus the dressing.
Do you think gluttony is a sin? Yes? No? Why? Why not?
I think it's morally objectionable, but I'm an agnostic so whether it is a sin or not I don't really know or care.
Do you think parents of fat kids are child abusers?
There are a lot of exceptions but generally, negligent not abusive. I know my mum fed me a lot of garbage as a child & I was never encouraged to go for a walk or play a sport.
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The Converter
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Posted: 9 Dec 2008 09:38 pm |
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I think that gluttony applies to other things besides food. I suppose a little over indulgence on thanksgiving may be a form of gluttony but chronic overindulgence of foods that are more for taste and less for nutrition is what is going on these days. Food has been plentiful for a very long time but obesity is a fairly recent thing. There was a time when we did practice temperance now American society seems a bit vulgar to me.
Abuse and neglect are two very similar things. Neglect can be more damaging. I know that there have been social service interventions in the case of obese children.
It seems that most of the posters here fall into the category of overweight. If you think about it, it is much easier to become overweight today than it was 30 years ago. Up until recently I drove a 91 Escort Wagon and the cup holders were too small for most convenience store cups. I remember when a bottle of pop was 8 oz. Just recently I went to Wendy's and ordered a burger, fries and a shake. I believe the smallest burger they offer is 1/4 pound. The small fries were huge. I was unable to finish the shake. I was planning to pig out because I had not eaten since breakfast so I had a lot of making up to do. I was stuffed! I rarely frequent fast food places but I was so hungry that I was getting a bit light headed. Actually the food was not all that bad. The fries were cooked in non trans fat. The burger came with a generous amount of onion, lettuce and tomato. The shake was skimmed milk ice and chocolate syrup.
I have observed a change in society. Recently a man was trampled to death at a sail at Wal-Mart because people wanted 20% off a HDTV. I was revolted.
In my research I observed the shopping habits of the obese and the non obese. It is astounding what ends up in the carts. I frequent all you can eat buffet just to observe the food choices and the amounts consumed and I am often flabbergasted. If defies all logic. We are not talking about a tiny percent of the population that may eat for "emotional" reasons. There are millions of people who are morbidly obese and super morbidly obese. One would think that once a waist size goes from 30 to 38 that person would think about putting on the brakes at some point but we are seeing millions with waist sizes of 40" to 72". They can barely walk yet the will literally waddle or roll in a scooter to fill their plates again and again and again. It defies all logic and reason.
I sat down with a about 15 fat people one at a time and discussed diet failure. Once they understood the mechanics of it in ways they could not dispute or pretend to not understand a asked them to give me reasons why they wanted to lose weight and get healthy. All of them gave rather selfish reasons. When I interviewed people who had lost the weight and asked them why they wanted to their motives were always more noble. They wanted to be healthy for their family and spouse first and foremost.
I counseled 10 people who wanted to lose weight but were selfish and egoistic and I asked them to come up with noble reasons for doing it. 7 of them had major success. The reported an entirely different outlook on life. It all happened in under a year.
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StuckSara
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 10 Dec 2008 01:18 am |
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Yeah, but food is still increasing in its availability. Large portions are much more readily available, and we eat them out of instinct. No, it is not the only reason people eat, but I think it is at the heart of the fascination with food. It is why food is so instinctively grea to us at first. A person can be eatting for emotional reasons, but the reason why they turn to that food is because it instinctively brings them pleasure. Other times it is because they realize they are obese, and restrain themselves too tightly for so long that they give in and over-indulge... many just give in to our basic desires. Food can also be considered a celebration which goes back to a long time ago too... so many people over eat because they love going out to eat with friends.
Of course gluttony applies to things other than food, but you were asking about food and obesity and whether or not it is gluttonous. Yeah, many do overindulge for taste that was my point as to why it is gluttony... because we do not need it and they are not eatting for nutrition.
I don't really get the point in asking people for their opinions for your book, and then trying to change their minds. I saw a response of yours to one of cportwine's posts in another thread... you seem pretty judgemental of other people's theories. You should atleast listen to and consider other opinions because many that seem opposing can actually work well together... otherwise I doubt your opinions will be taken well in return.
Last edited on 10 Dec 2008 01:18 am by StuckSara
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The Converter
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Posted: 10 Dec 2008 01:46 am |
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StuckSara wrote: Yeah, but food is still increasing in its availability. Large portions are much more readily available, and we eat them out of instinct. No, it is not the only reason people eat, but I think it is at the heart of the fascination with food. It is why food is so instinctively grea to us at first. A person can be eatting for emotional reasons, but the reason why they turn to that food is because it instinctively brings them pleasure. Other times it is because they realize they are obese, and restrain themselves too tightly for so long that they give in and over-indulge... many just give in to our basic desires. Food can also be considered a celebration which goes back to a long time ago too... so many people over eat because they love going out to eat with friends.
Of course gluttony applies to things other than food, but you were asking about food and obesity and whether or not it is gluttonous. Yeah, many do overindulge for taste that was my point as to why it is gluttony... because we do not need it and they are not eatting for nutrition.
I don't really get the point in asking people for their opinions for your book, and then trying to change their minds. I saw a response of yours to one of cportwine's posts in another thread... you seem pretty judgemental of other people's theories. You should atleast listen to and consider other opinions because many that seem opposing can actually work well together... otherwise I doubt your opinions will be taken well in return.
Super sizing is relatively new. Even after the introduction of the Big Mac nearly 40 years ago the single burger and cheese burger remained the top seller. The customer is who dictates what foods get served and eaten. If moderate portion size were big sellers that is what the restaurants would be selling. If health and moderation sold they would sell it.
You mention instinct. That is what animals rely on. A dog will eat till it pukes and gets obese if you don't moderate its food. I have looked at attitudes and I believe that people have become immoderate and more greedy than ever. I too used to blame McDonalds until it dawned on me that they were merely giving the customer what they wanted and were really good at it.
I don't see how I am being judgmental but I find it interesting that you would say that. What is it specifically that I have said that you think is judgmental?
The Bible has a lot to say about gluttony. St Thomas Aquinas wrote extensively about it. His idea was that the pleasure from food was an earthly pleasure that diverted people from spiritual matters. You using the word instinct is interesting.
The recent trampling of the Wal-Mart employee by the greedy Christmas herd seem to to indicate just how far our society has sunk. Do you think perhaps the greed, gluttony, egoism and obesity we see today may indeed be a symptom of perhaps a moral decay in Western civilization? I would be very interested in your thoughts on that.
I am very interested in what people have said so far; you especially.
I am not trying to change anyone mind. I am now expressing what I think and what I know to be true in hopes of further exploring this subject with others.
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StuckSara
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 10 Dec 2008 02:15 am |
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That is actually interesting to me that people did not like the big mac at first. Why did it stay on the menu then?
I have never blamed fast food companies, ever. I never said that either. Yeah, they are only selling what they knew what be boughten, they want to make money. I was saying we buy it because we love food... and many will eat as much of it as we can if we do not filter ourselves. We can control what we eat, but that's exactly it, "control". Saying that we need to "control" what we eat means if we did not consciously alter our eatting habbits, we would be fatter... our subconscious tells us food is good.
When you said instinct is only what animals rely on is when I realized the reason you and I will not see eye to eye is because I believe we are primarily an animal. We have evolved into a different thought process. Just as evolution has created different methods of breathing, like gills or lungs, and different modes of transportation, like all four limbs, just two legs, or fins, it has also created different ways of thinking about our surroundings and where we are in them; this is why we are able to have a complex language and symbols. I think this is the only thing that really seperates us from animals. If you look deeply our basic instincts are still the same. Strip everything away from us; no money, clothes, food, friends, family, tools, and put us on an island. What will we try to find first? Food, protection from other animals, shelter from the elements, warmth, etc. These are the same things any animal would be driven to find. We all are driven to survive by our instincts. Atleast this is the way I think... my major is Anthropology after all. I understand how people can think otherwise, but it just does not fit into my logic.
You were being judgemental when you basically said cport was full of bs.
Any earthly gluttonous pleasures are going to divert us from spiritual reality, not just food. That's why we're here on earth! How could we fit in anywhere other than Earth when all we care about are material things. I don't know why it's interesting I use the word instinct. Instincts are a good thing, but can be taken too far when we obtain the technology to do so, and our instincts which have been instilled since the beginning of life are stronger than our conscious knowledge.
I also think one of our main differences is it seems you take a pessimistic view on people, especially Americans. I do not think we are getting becoming evil or anything like that... our humanly ways are just being expressed differently. Think about all the extremely horrible things people have done in the past. There have been genocides for thousands of years. People have always wanted to be king of the mountain. It is awful a man got trampled to death! But I don't think that is anything new. People have always killed other people for their own benefit. Sometimes killing people in the thousands or millions. On the other side I think people have always had a compassionate side as well. I do not think any human is bad, just strayed from their path. Also, I don't see why you think greed, gluttony, and egoism are new. I also don't see why it is constrained to just our society. Obesity is the only recent one, and my argument is because our advancements in technology have allowed us to get there.
I hope everything I'm saying is making sense. It would be much easier in an actual verbal conversation... I have problems with making my intentions come accross well through writing. This is probably why I took you to be somewhat rude as well. You may have not intended to, even to cport, but that was how it came across. Thank you for explaining yourself though.
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StuckSara
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 10 Dec 2008 02:37 am |
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| Also with a name like "the converter" it does make it sound like you're out to change people's opinions, rather than collect them.
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willpower
Member
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Posted: 10 Dec 2008 02:47 am |
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I'm just going to put in my two pennies worth here, I think everyone that is over weight, has a reason for being that way. I was thin as a child all the way up until i married and had kids. I also had skeletons from my childhood and I was molested at a young age. I was also MADE to always clean my plate at EVERY meal, it did not matter if i liked what i was eating or not, as my father would not let you leave the table unless you did. After marriage i moved 800 miles from any of my own family, thus i over indulged in alcohol, then came the eating. I quit drinking in 2004...First accomplishment, Quit drinking coke, second accomplishment...now as for counting calories, I GET THAT, what i am not UNDERSTANDING is how to figure out (call me stupid, and i suck at math) is how to figure out what i need to be burning, and i am sure i am not the only one on this site that truly does not understand this. NOT the fact that i am too lazy to do it because i am not! I want to lose this weight and to get healthy, and i am doing it for myself first and foremost.
I am sorry for getting off topic, but after reading this thread, It made me feel because i am overweight, that i am looked at as wanting to lose weight, but not do the work, and that is NOT true, I think some people just really don't understand how to do the math. I have never been one to try all the diet pills, or the way out there diets, although they may work for some. I realize that i have to change my diet from what i was eating as well, but people come here for help and support and i think sometimes people feel ridiculed for simply not understanding something which only makes them feel worse
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StuckSara
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 10 Dec 2008 02:53 am |
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| There are calculators on this site that are really accurate that tell you what you how many calories you burn in a day. They're up topunder calories burned calculator... go to either the activity calculator and enter in everything you do in a 24 hour period including sleeping or eatting, or an easier way is to figure out your BMR and adjust it for your activity level. After you know how many calories you burn in a day, just eat less than that for a while and adjust depending on how you do. Good luck! And I hope you didn't take anything that I had said in this post as believing that people who are overweight and don't just don't want to do the work.
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The Converter
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Posted: 10 Dec 2008 02:58 am |
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StuckSara wrote: That is actually interesting to me that people did not like the big mac at first. Why did it stay on the menu then?
You are very intellectually dishonest. I never said people didn't like it. I said that for some time the regular sandwiches remained top sellers when the Big Mac was the biggest sandwich 40 years ago.
I have never blamed fast food companies, ever. I never said that either. Yeah, they are only selling what they knew what be boughten, they want to make money. I was saying we buy it because we love food... and many will eat as much of it as we can if we do not filter ourselves. We can control what we eat, but that's exactly it, "control". Saying that we need to "control" what we eat means if we did not consciously alter our eatting habbits, we would be fatter... our subconscious tells us food is good.
I never said you blamed the fast food company. BTW there is no such word as boughten. Were you educated in the South? Also you spelled eating habits wrong.
People have controlled their primal instincts for thousands of years. Our subconscious has no bearing on our appetite. The appetite is controlled by the hypothalamus mostly.
When you said instinct is only what animals rely on is when I realized the reason you and I will not see eye to eye is because I believe we are primarily an animal.
I never said animals rely only on instinct. You may be an animal but I am a human being created in the image of what we commonly refer to as God.
We have evolved into a different thought process. Just as evolution has created different methods of breathing, like gills or lungs, and different modes of transportation, like all four limbs, just two legs, or fins, it has also created different ways of thinking about our surroundings and where we are in them; this is why we are able to have a complex language and symbols. I think this is the only thing that really seperates us from animals. If you look deeply our basic instincts are still the same. Strip everything away from us; no money, clothes, food, friends, family, tools, and put us on an island. What will we try to find first? Food, protection from other animals, shelter from the elements, warmth, etc. These are the same things any animal would be driven to find. We all are driven to survive by our instincts. Atleast this is the way I think... my major is Anthropology after all. I understand how people can think otherwise, but it just does not fit into my logic.
Anthropology? It sure was not English grammar and spelling. One of my fields of study is neuroscience. So I can tell you with great authority that human have a very large pre-frontal lobe that separates us from the animals. It gives us impulse control and self control should we decide to use it. It is why we have concepts of right and wrong. It is why humans can act civilized. We have free will. We can choose to behave responsibly when it comes to food they way we used to or we can behave they way most people do know. 1/3 of us Americans do behave responsibly and control or animal drives. We do this because we choose it. An animal cannot do that. In a sense you are saying tha fat people have deevolved into some sort of food crazed shaved ape.
You were being judgemental when you basically said cport was full of bs.
There was no judging involved. I did not say she was full of BS even though she really is.
Any earthly gluttonous pleasures are going to divert us from spiritual reality, not just food. That's why we're here on earth! How could we fit in anywhere other than Earth when all we care about are material things. I don't know why it's interesting I use the word instinct. Instincts are a good thing, but can be taken too far when we obtain the technology to do so, and our instincts which have been instilled since the beginning of life are stronger than our conscious knowledge.
I can't say why we are here but I don't think we are here to be unbridled eat beasts. Instincts and drives are differnt things. Mothers have instincts. Drives are something we are designed to control. I like sex but I don't go out and rape women that I find sexually attractive and then blame my instinct. The same holds true for food.
I also think one of our main differences is it seems you take a pessimistic view on people, especially Americans. I do not think we are getting becoming evil or anything like that... our humanly ways are just being expressed differently. Think about all the extremely horrible things people have done in the past. There have been genocides for thousands of years. People have always wanted to be king of the mountain. It is awful a man got trampled to death! But I don't think that is anything new. People have always killed other people for their own benefit. Sometimes killing people in the thousands or millions. On the other side I think people have always had a compassionate side as well. I do not think any human is bad, just strayed from their path. Also, I don't see why you think greed, gluttony, and egoism are new. I also don't see why it is constrained to just our society. Obesity is the only recent one, and my argument is because our advancements in technology have allowed us to get there.
American are often quite vulgar and the rest of the world would agree. I never said greed, gluttony and egoism are new. Those vile traits took down the Roman Empire. They were a vulgar bunch. The technology argument is bogus. Japan is more advanced as is most of Europe and they are notnearly as fat as we are. The fattest Americans live in the red states and vote for Republicans and are Baptists
I hope everything I'm saying is making sense. It would be much easier in an actual verbal conversation... I have problems with making my intentions come accross well through writing. This is probably why I took you to be somewhat rude as well. You may have not intended to, even to cport, but that was how it came across. Thank you for explaining yourself though.
WHen I write I write literally and if someone jabs I sometimes jab back.
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willpower
Member
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Posted: 10 Dec 2008 03:04 am |
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I take full responsibility for being overweight, I made the choice to eat what was not good for me, and I am now taking responsibility to get healthy.
I think you can state your opionion, but I AM BAPTIST and i am from the SOUTH and that wasn't very nice to say
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The Converter
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Posted: 10 Dec 2008 04:01 am |
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willpower wrote: I take full responsibility for being overweight, I made the choice to eat what was not good for me, and I am now taking responsibility to get healthy.
I think you can state your opionion, but I AM BAPTIST and i am from the SOUTH and that wasn't very nice to say
I know but it is so true. The South is a pretty savage place. Here's a very well researched study. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/6233.php
I suspect the reason the Baptists are the fattest is the idea of salvation and once saved it is a done deal. Jews on the other hand follow the dietary laws and they are into atonement for their sins and believe they are held accountable until the day they die. Catholics are the leanest among Christians and they are held accountable through confession. It is also interesting that Baptists are over represented in prison and have more divorces and teen pregnancies than any other groups. Jews are very law abiding as are Asian Americans who are also rarely obese.
Don't get all #%@&! off. These are facts. I am not making any judgments. I do say the South is savage because of slavery and civil rights. It is also interesting to note that Black males are the leanest. White males in the South are often swag bellied as well as Southern females of both races.
I am very ashamed of White Southern culture and heritage. I wonder if the fact that these people are dropping like flies from diabetes and heart disease and suffering all the other comorbidities is pay back for the abuse the Blacks suffered.
Statistically Baptists and Pentecostals are the fattest. Jews are the leanest.
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willpower
Member
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Posted: 10 Dec 2008 04:24 am |
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I understand what you are saying, but i don't think everyone feels that way. I am a Baptist, although i haven't been to church in years.
No one man is going to fix the worlds weight issues, it has to come from the within of the person who wants to look and feel better. Unless maybe of course you have the ability to hypnotise me . I am almost 6' , and i am not looking for my body to disappear behind a telephone pole..I really don't care much for being tall either, suppose you could fix that . I am generally nice, unless provoked, I am here for all the right reasons along with alot of other people.
You stated in another thread that y ou could help the FAT person, and i have to say i wouldn't prefer to be called that, nor a thick girl. But you got all the answers so i am ready, wave your magic wand
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The Converter
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| Posts: | 33 |
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Posted: 10 Dec 2008 04:41 am |
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willpower wrote: I understand what you are saying, but i don't think everyone feels that way. I am a Baptist, although i haven't been to church in years.
Good for you!
No one man is going to fix the worlds weight issues, it has to come from the within of the person who wants to look and feel better. Unless maybe of course you have the ability to hypnotise me. I am almost 6' , and i am not looking for my body to disappear behind a telephone pole..I really don't care much for being tall either, suppose you could fix that. I am generally nice, unless provoked, I am here for all the right reasons along with alot of other people.
A guy named Jonas Salk cured Polio. I guy named Hitler changed the world too. I am not going to do this by myself but if you would like to PM me and you want to be cured. I will get you closer than anyone else has. You are here getting advice form fat people. That is like asking a smoker how to quit smoking.
You stated in another thread that y ou could help the FAT person, and i have to say i wouldn't prefer to be called that, nor a thick girl. But you got all the answers so i am ready, wave your magic wand
I am not comfortable with the term fat person either. I prefer fat bodied person because we are trying to get their bodies unfat.
I don't have all the answers but the ones I have are the right ones. My magic wand is one of logic, facts and rational behaviors, beliefs and emotions. My style and techniques challenge people's bull #%@&! and today's myths. I would say that my chances of curing you would be over 80%. If you want to start PM me. We can start tomorrow.
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StuckSara
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 10 Dec 2008 05:11 am |
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I was typing quickly and mistakes happen. I'm not trying to use proper English on here either. If you want to get into spelling though, Bologna is not spelled "bulloney" or however you spelled it in the thread "can't ever seem to lose weight"; a sale at Walmart is not a "sail" at Walmart; "moderate portion size" is singular, so you shouldn't follow it with "were big sellers"; there is no such word as till in the way you use it either. Not to mention many of your words have left out letters, added in doubles, or you have completely added in a word. So please don't try to attack my spelling or grammar... no one in here is trying to get what we post published and I really doubt anyone actually reviews what they have written before posting it.
I was not trying to be "intellectually dishonest" about the big mac thing... I meant "didn't like" as in it was not their favorite... I think you're just misinterpreting me. Actually I think you've misinterpreted me a lot.
You said "I too once blamed the fast food companies", I took the "too" as you used to believe it as I do, since I am the one you're talking to after all. So, yes, you did say I blamed the fast food companies.
"I never said animals rely only on instinct"
No, and I never said that you did! I said "when you said instinct is only what animals rely on" after you said "you mentioned instinct. That is what animals rely on.". Meaning only animals rely on instinct!
Honestly I'm getting really sick of going back through all our comments and typing "you said" and "I said"... but now I'm heated.
My whole point to the evolution/creation thing was that our views are different... not that you were wrong and I was right, simply that our opposing views are why our thoughts will not work well together. I don't care if you think you were created in gods image or not, but you have to admit it sets many parts of your logical framework.
Ok, so a human has a larger pre-frontal lobe... does that debunk anything I said? Many animals have larger body parts than others... yet everyone will agree they are all animals the same. I will not deny we have more brain power than other animals... wasn't that what I was saying? That's what I said our difference is among other animals!
I also never said humans can't control our drive to eat more. Of course we can, I do everyday. My point was, again, that the reason food is such a large focus on our lives is because we have aways needed it to survive, and lived everyday to find it for a very long time.
When did I say we are here to be unbridled eat beasts? I said not just food is an earthly gluttonous pleasure that would divert us from spiritual reality. Just as you said "St Thomas Aquinas wrote extensively about it. His idea was that the pleasure from food was an earthly pleasure that diverted people from spiritual matters". I brought this up because you pointed out that gluttony does not only apply to food. I was agreeing with you! Have you even been reading what I was saying? Or were you just clicking quote and finding anything possible to argue with?
I really hope no one else is reading this because I'm pretty embarrassed I'm actually biting at this.
You did say that greed, gluttony, and egoism are new:
"The recent trampling of the Wal-Mart employee by the greedy Christmas herd seem to to indicate just how far our society has sunk. Do you think perhaps the greed, gluttony, egoism and obesity we see today may indeed be a symptom of perhaps a moral decay in Western civilization? I would be very interested in your thoughts on that."
Sounds new to me...
You seem to forget what you have said a lot... you also seem pretty high on your grammar horse.
I really do not care that we view our world totally different. Most of my friends are creationists! That's what makes us all so great is that we have these differences.. it is also how we progress, through variation and finding new and better ways of thought. I do however dislike your condescending tone. I try to place "I think" everywhere in my writing because I know that I do not know everything in our universe, just as NO ONE else does... when you say things like "you may be an animal but I am a human created in the image of what we commonly refer to as god", it sounds as if you somehow know this to be absolutely true, which no one can possibly have the ability to do being the HUMANS that we are... it doesn't matter how intelligent you think you are. It just sounds arrogant.
I really do wish you luck on your book. We have different views but we are both just humans trying to find truths in life, so no matter what I resepect you.
Last edited on 10 Dec 2008 05:19 am by StuckSara
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The Converter
Restricted Member
| Joined: | 9 Dec 2008 |
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| Posts: | 33 |
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Posted: 10 Dec 2008 03:27 pm |
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Hey Stuck, I am not going to waste my time playing semantics with you. Anyone would agree that our society has become more egoistic, gluttonous and greedy than ever.
My point is this; the obesity epidemic is a symptom of a society in decline in my informed opinion. Food is a quick and easy way to hedonism. People jokingly refer to the Food Channel as porn for fat people. Most of the chefs are obese.
Heart attacks waiting to happen.
Scared of you! She has more chins than Chinatown.
Every time someone eats something they are conscious of what they are doing. They get to the store and they buy things they know the should not eat but they do it anyway. Most people in the US get obese and do nothing about it accept whine to their doctor.
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sweet kisses
Senior Member
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Posted: 10 Dec 2008 08:30 pm |
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Wow! Looks like things have gotten a little heated over here....
I both agree and disagree with both of you.
I agree with Stucksara in that I believe we are essentially animals that won the evolutionary lottery. We still have instincts and such from the collective memories of our species that pushes us to behave in certain ways that clash with our current environment. Then again, that's just the atheist/evolutionist in me talking. I disagree in that she mentioned that gluttony is simply WANTING something you dont need (I think Converter agrees on this though). I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting something. Its the actual taking or eating of that something that makes it gluttony to me. I can want cookies all day long, but I don't consider myself gluttonous till I've eaten like 3 of them.
I agree with the Converter that weight managment is an issue of personal responsibility and control. Even though I believe in our instictual drives, I believe we can and need to overcome them. But I think he/she (don't know) is tieing the issue of obesity a little too closely to morality in general. Maybe I'm just not that bright, but I don't see the connection between somebody getting trampled at a sale at Walmart and people eating too much. Other than getting stepped on by a 200-lber is going to hurt a whole lot more than getting stepped on a by a 100-lber.
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The Converter
Restricted Member
| Joined: | 9 Dec 2008 |
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| Posts: | 33 |
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Posted: 11 Dec 2008 02:47 am |
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sweet kisses wrote: Wow! Looks like things have gotten a little heated over here....
I both agree and disagree with both of you.
I agree with Stucksara in that I believe we are essentially animals that won the evolutionary lottery. We still have instincts and such from the collective memories of our species that pushes us to behave in certain ways that clash with our current environment. Then again, that's just the atheist/evolutionist in me talking. I disagree in that she mentioned that gluttony is simply WANTING something you dont need (I think Converter agrees on this though). I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting something. Its the actual taking or eating of that something that makes it gluttony to me. I can want cookies all day long, but I don't consider myself gluttonous till I've eaten like 3 of them.
I agree with the Converter that weight managment is an issue of personal responsibility and control. Even though I believe in our instictual drives, I believe we can and need to overcome them. But I think he/she (don't know) is tieing the issue of obesity a little too closely to morality in general. Maybe I'm just not that bright, but I don't see the connection between somebody getting trampled at a sale at Walmart and people eating too much. Other than getting stepped on by a 200-lber is going to hurt a whole lot more than getting stepped on a by a 100-lber.
Not so long ago obesity was rare and Christmas was not the vulgar display it is to day. We are a pretty unloving and selfish society. We devalue each other. We are greedy.
We have animal drives but we used to control them better. I am not a Christian but I do like the Judeo-Christian ethic but it is not as strong today as it used to be. I loved the WW2 generation. Most of them are gone. I'm a baby boomer and we baby boomers stink on ice. We neglect our kids. We medicate childhood. We babysit with X Box and we set some very bad examples. We are losing our humanity. We are ugly.
We are a society and culture in decline and obesity is merely one symptom. I know people don't like the word gluttony but #%@&! it, it applies and not just about food. I don't hold fitness junkies people in any higher esteem than the food junkies. It is just another form of shallowness and self indulgence. If there is a point to this here it is.
Being fit and responsible with food and life style is not about you or self. It is about the people we are supposed to care about. The diet gurus tell you to "do it for you". That is total #%@&!. The people who succeed at this have all done it for noble reasons. What are your noble reasons? We can talk diet mechanics till we are blue in the face. We all know what to do so let's stop the BS.
Ladies and gentleman do this for your family.
Do it to be a good example to others.
Do it to be attractive for you mate.
Do it for your kids, grand kids and great grand kids.
Do it so you won't be a burden on them and society.
Do it so you can be with them for as long as possible because they need you and they love you.
Now shut up and stay on your diet!
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sweet kisses
Senior Member
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Posted: 11 Dec 2008 04:04 am |
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For one, I don't wanna like make you mad or anything, but you don't have to quote what I just wrote like that. The people here will still know that you replying to what I said if you just hit reply. I'm just saying because I read on a pet peeves thread that the moderators or the administrators have to go through all of the posts on the site and some of them use a "reading" software so they can just listen to what people wrote instead of reading it so they can monitor the site and do other work at the same time. Anyway, when you quote whole posts like that, they have to listen to that whole thing again and they said it can get really annoying and kind of wastes their time. Basically it makes it harder to stay on top of things on the site. Since you know, you talk about doing things for other people and such....I'm just trying to help you do what you say is important to you, I don't want you take it like I'm critisizing you on this point. Basically, If its something that is a couple posts old, you can and should quote, but if your replying directly to what was just said, no quote is needed. Thank you for your consideration.
Also, I still don't really get your connection between food and morality. I get that we've gotten fatter. I get that we're not the most moral of generations. But somehow I just don't connect the the two. I'm not saying I think your wrong on the matter, I'm just saying I'm having trouble with the concept. Although, you mentioned negligent parenting and I kinda started wondering if maybe the two have not gone hand in hand simply because getting fat is immoral, but because in the baby boomer's selfishness they didn't teach morals. They also didn't teach weight managment skills and how to eat right. So maybe the two aren't connected in the way you say they are, but simply because bad parenting in two separate areas happened to happen at the same time? I'm not saying that's what I definately think is the truth, I'm just saying its an interesting concept that would be pretty neat to look into.
Also, just as a side note, I do happen to have some pretty noble reasons for losing weight and being healthy.  <=*hehe me feeling cool for bein all noble-like hehe* I've got some pretty selfish ones too, lol, but not all of them are all about me.
Oh, and as another side note, you kinda come off a condescending and know-it-all-ish and its not very pleasant. You have every right to make your opinions heard, but you need to be careful in your delivery. That's what I mean in our conversation in the ED forum about the way you say things. I'm pretty sure if people talked to you the way you've been talking to us, you'd get pretty miffed and simply wouldn't want to talk to them anymore. Please treat people as you would like to be treated. (that's part of being a moral citizen you know.) Once again, thankyou for your consideration.
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The Converter
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| Joined: | 9 Dec 2008 |
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| Posts: | 33 |
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Posted: 11 Dec 2008 04:54 am |
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You said. "Also, I still don't really get your connection between food and morality."
That's obvious. If you did you probably would not be fat. You would exercise more responsiblility and self control. Clearly you don't. Over indulgence is a form of egoism and entitlement. It is very unbecoming. It's unladylike.
Americans today are professional victims, whining malingers, self centered babies, who would trample another human being to death get a discount. Over eating tasty yummy food is an example of that extreme egoism.
Morality is a subject for debate but clear selfish and neglectful behavior speaks for itself.
I don't look down nor do I look up to anyone. I don't think I am condescending. Know it all? I can tell you this. When it comes to this subject I will not show the false humility you would like to see. I get it when most people don't. I have studied this since 2002. Unlike your doctor or shrink or counselor at Diet Center or the charlatans at Jenny Craig I know why 98% of people who diet fail. I took the time to understand human nature. I get the neuroscience of it as well as the psycho-biology and I understand the psychological and spiritual components better than anyone on the planet. That is why I can reform people who are chronically eating too much.
I can spot BS a mile away. I force people to be honest with themselves and it is not pleasant. People do not take well to criticism. Fat people really hate it because they are used to being indulged, patronized and accommodated. I rain on their parade. They are not used to that. Most people are used to getting the usual phony a$$ kissing that we do so automatically.
I think you are having more of a problem with content than style. Keep in mind, I don't want to see anything bad happen to you. I would like to see you grow as a human being. I did a altruism egoism survey and I found that fat people are not particularly altruistic. Lean people especially the anas are painfully altruistic. It's truly pathetic. That also make them appealing to men. It is not just the look. Fat women look robust and formidable and come off as bossy and strident but under the surface you find a real mess. Fat men do the large and in charge routine too but women see them as pathetic and undesireable. Normal men don't really give it much thought.
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sweet kisses
Senior Member
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Posted: 11 Dec 2008 05:35 am |
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Converter, I'm not "fat" the way you mean it. I'm currently a "normal" weight for my height and I've never been more than 6 lbs overweight ever. Just letting you know. And I think saying that I don't get your connection is purely because I am "fat" is ludicrus. It just is. I think it has more to do with the fact that I haven't read the (apprantly TONS) of literature you have read to reach this conclusion and the fact that we have had different life experiences.
Also your statements on Americans are a hasty generalization. Have you met every single American to prove that all Americans the pathetic creatures you say they are? Obviously not all of them are all those things because apparantly you are none of things. Unless you are not an American. You haven't specified that and I'm not going to be so rude or inconsiderate as to simply assume you are.
As a matter of fact, you do behave more than a little condescending. And you're absolutely positive you understand these things " better than anyone on the planet?" Well that's not egotistical at all....
Last edited on 11 Dec 2008 05:37 am by sweet kisses
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sweet kisses
Senior Member
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Posted: 11 Dec 2008 05:36 am |
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Actually, all the larger people that I know personally are actually really quiet and insecure with themselves. I've never seen even a hint of "large and in charge" in them. I find that complete insecurity a little off-putting. I dated a larger guy and I broke up with him because he was so unconfident it affected his ability to just go and have fun--not exactly sexy. I mean beyond the insecurity they're usally wonderful people, but they're so unhappy with what they look like that you have to really get to know them to see past their insecurity... Then again, the large people I know are only a small percentage of the large people out there, so me saying that all fat people are actually even less "large and in charge" than skinny people would be making a hasty generalization myeslf.
Last edited on 11 Dec 2008 05:38 am by sweet kisses
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DaniMae1
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 11 Dec 2008 08:11 am |
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Okay I'm game. I'll answer these.
I am fat ish (lost 50...20 to go) because when I quit my full time cleaning I apparently was eating more and burning less than when I was working.
I don't know what to say about the energy thing.
Some people think they "can't", some just "won't", and I know a few who just don't care.
The "mechanics" of weight loss is hard to grasp with all of the phony diets and pill out there.
I'd say the obesity crisis is because we are a very idulgent society. More more more! And that includes food! So many restraunts out there! I am guilty of not liking to cook. I'd go out every night if I could afford it. The food companies are NOT responsible. They don't force anyone to eat their products. The government? Not at all! The blame lies on the people and in the case of kids the blame is on the parents.
I would NOT like to see the government do anything. That is not a function of government as outlined in the Constitution.
Is obesity a result of gluttony? Most likely. Plus lack of exercise. Is gluttony a sin? Everything is a sin! Are parents of fat kids abusers? No. Just uneducated I guess.
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Sylphide
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Aug 2006 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 247 |
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Posted: 11 Dec 2008 08:40 am |
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Don't you folks ever sleep?
Ah, Converter, I'm glad you're still here. Your, rather inflammatory, posts have sparked some very interesting discussions. It does worry me a little to think that you are actually leading a group that struggles with weight. Your dislike for such people is not very well hidden. Your unscientific "studies'" based on watching people eat at buffets prove nothing. Your slurs of "slag bellied" or "selfish," are as bad as racial slurs. In other words, you should judge people by the content of their character not the number on the scale.
There was an excellent show on PBS last year called, "The Truth About Fat." It was that rare thing, information about the causes of obesity that was not coming from someone trying to sell a weight loss book or an exercise DVD. It was based on the findings of Harvard Medical School's research about weight. Real studies involving thousands of people and control groups. Unlike your observations, they found that most overweight people don't average more calories that thin people, they don't eat faster, or more junk food and they don't eat for emotional reasons more often than thin people. The Harvard professor believes that whether or not our bodies tend to store calories as fat has to do with our inherited genes and how much we diet.
Dieting teaches our bodies to burn calories more efficiently so that we turn ouselves into economy models that get more miles per hour from each calorie. So the "swag bellied" person you see walking down the street may actually eat less than you do. The person who has never denied themselves a single candy bar may be the thin one while the woman who has had the self-control to stick to a strict diet for months on end may be the one with the double chin.
Because, as this Harvard Doctor said, " Dieting is like holding your breath, no matter how strong willed you are, sooner or later you have to give in." The people you see eating huge quantities at the Golden Coral may have been starving themselves for weeks. Or they have given up altogether and their years of dieting have turned them into compulsive eaters.
It's a very complicated issue and has nothing to do with our egos or gluttony. For most of us here, who are trying; losing weight is a matter of finding that fine line between eating too many calories for our slow metabolism to burn and eating so few that we make it even slower. It could be a matter of an extra tablespoon of dressing on our salad or an extra apple in the afternoon.
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The Converter
Restricted Member
| Joined: | 9 Dec 2008 |
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| Posts: | 33 |
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Posted: 11 Dec 2008 10:27 pm |
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Sylphide wrote: Don't you folks ever sleep?
Ah, Converter, I'm glad you're still here. Your, rather inflammatory, posts have sparked some very interesting discussions. It does worry me a little to think that you are actually leading a group that struggles with weight. Your dislike for such people is not very well hidden. Your unscientific "studies'" based on watching people eat at buffets prove nothing. Your slurs of "slag bellied" or "selfish," are as bad as racial slurs. In other words, you should judge people by the content of their character not the number on the scale.
You must be a glutton for punishment. Hanging bellies are indeed swagged bellies. When fat people go to buffets and pig out in an uncouth and gluttonous manner it proves that fat people go to buffets and pig out in an uncouth and gluttonous manner. Draw your own conclusions. I am not proving anything I am reporting the obvious. There are several thing we know when we see a fat person. First off, they eat too much. Secondly, they make bad food choices. Thirdly they are unwilling to behave responsibly. Fourth they don't care about the consequences of their behavior. Character is a value judgement. I am talking mostly about behavior and beliefs.
There was an excellent show on PBS last year called, "The Truth About Fat." It was that rare thing, information about the causes of obesity that was not coming from someone trying to sell a weight loss book or an exercise DVD. It was based on the findings of Harvard Medical School's research about weight. Real studies involving thousands of people and control groups. Unlike your observations, they found that most overweight people don't average more calories that thin people, they don't eat faster, or more junk food and they don't eat for emotional reasons more often than thin people. The Harvard professor believes that whether or not our bodies tend to store calories as fat has to do with our inherited genes and how much we diet.
Quit lying! 30 years ago most people were not fat now most people are so there goes your silly genetic theory. I am not going to educate you on digestion, glycogen and the Krebs cycle or thermodynamics. But this Harvard professor is full of #%@&! or you didn't understand waht he was saying. BTW, big pharma funds medical schools.
Dieting teaches our bodies to burn calories more efficiently so that we turn ouselves into economy models that get more miles per hour from each calorie. So the "swag bellied" person you see walking down the street may actually eat less than you do. The person who has never denied themselves a single candy bar may be the thin one while the woman who has had the self-control to stick to a strict diet for months on end may be the one with the double chin.
What a crock. You don't even know what a calorie is. Again learn about conservation of mass and reality
Because, as this Harvard Doctor said, " Dieting is like holding your breath, no matter how strong willed you are, sooner or later you have to give in." The people you see eating huge quantities at the Golden Coral may have been starving themselves for weeks. Or they have given up altogether and their years of dieting have turned them into compulsive eaters.
If he said that then he is a moron egg head getting his pockets lined so that big pharma can produce anther deadly diet drug like Redux or Phen Phen. You professor has no basis for saying that. That sounds like the same #%@&! that moron Professor Paul Campos spews. Paul Campos writes fat acceptance book and he is a sleazy lawyer. BTW there were no fat people in concentration camps and thier obesity rate once the were liberated was the same as the general population. The same thing is true of victims of famine. Consider that myth busted.
It's a very complicated issue and has nothing to do with our egos or gluttony. For most of us here, who are trying; losing weight is a matter of finding that fine line between eating too many calories for our slow metabolism to burn and eating so few that we make it even slower. It could be a matter of an extra tablespoon of dressing on our salad or an extra apple in the afternoon.
You and other fat people would like to make it complicated so that you can have a smorgasbord of excuses from wich to choose. It is this simple. Eat the correct amount of calories everyday. Why is that so tough for you?
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