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Another Diet Forum > General Discussions > Off Topic Posts > Do you want to be more attractive? Do you use foul language freely? |
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Peter Founder of this forum 
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It always catches my attention when I see someone that really looks good, or someone that is working really hard to look better, and I hear really foul language flowing freely from their lips. Don't they ever think about how unattractive it makes them look? I was just reading through the forum posts and noticed that some of our members who are working so hard to look better don't seem to give this a thought. I think it's inconsistent with having a nice looking body, clothes, hair... It makes them look less attractive to me. I use foul language myself sometimes. Most all of us do. But I wouldn't do it purposely, for example when typing a post. What are your thoughts on this? Peter  P.S. BTW, my advertisements pay for my costs to keep this site free and the advertisers won't allow any foul language on the pages that contain their ads. That's one of the reasons I filter out words like #%@&!. |
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Nir Senior Administrator 
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As a teenager (say up to age 20) I found foul language quite offensive but through repeated exposure I've relaxed my attitude and find myself using it at times, having to watch myself in certain situations, notably in the workplace (in my last position). I find myself a bit of a hypocrite when using strong language when talking to my friend Nash, since I've spent considerable effort insisting he cleaned up his language when talking to me  . Also it doesn't feel right when I catch myself using some words when talking to my little sisters. In general I find the choice of words to be a dynamic thing, chosen for the calibre of an audience as I perceive them [and the 'strength' of sentiment I wish to convey]. After all, I could upset people by going the other way - I don't need to state that I've had a Cambridge University education, merely using inappropriately 'clever' language is going to upset and exclude the subset of people who have a chip on their shoulder about such things. Language is a dynamic thing... |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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My point is less logical. I'm simply saying that I think it's unattractive. It seems an oxymoron (there's one of those fancy words!  ) to see a beautiful woman looking so nice from head to toe -- looking her best -- and hearing her say #%@&!, #%@&! and #%@&!.I would put having a cigarette flopping around, hanging from the corner of her mouth while she's talking, in the same category. Or talking with a mouth full of food. Peter |
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I_Love_FX_Shows New Member 
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I would say there's some people who get away with it and still look attractive. Those who use words like s*#! and *$%!ing, but aren't using it offensively or for effect and don't over-do it. My best example would be a friend of mine who was born in Italy and raised in NY. He's got a mafia type accent and says s*#! and *$%!ing every now and again when he talks, but he doesn't overdo it, nor is he nasty about it. He also still looks good saying s*#! and *$%!ing while talking with a cig flopping in the corner of his mouth! Hahaa He's quite the character. Personally, I hardly ever say such words unless I need to set someone straight. People who know me know I hardly ever use them yet am not afraid to use them, so if I do, they know they need to straighten up. Last edited on 20 Apr 2007 04:26 pm by I_Love_FX_Shows |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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I_Love_FX_Shows, That brings up an entirely different subject! I didn't mind your using "s*#! and *$%!ing" in this discussion, but I hate it when people do that in the forum to try to get around the forum rules. (I edit or delete their posts.) Everyone knows what they mean so to me it's just like they're actually writing the whole words. Newsweek magazine will regularly does that, quoting people with words like s___. The dumbest example is this preacher who used to have a talk radio show. He regularly used words like "doggie pooh" and "Jiminy Cricket" where everyone knew he meant s___ and Jesus Christ. So here was this preacher, a man of God, using foul language and "taking the name of the Lord in vain" on the radio day after day. It was so obvious what he meant that all his listeners were most certainly replacing the words he spoke with the words he meant. Lordy, some "man of God." Peter |
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fsahurie New Member
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I find foul language annoying to hear, I mean what are people trying to prove?Its like seeing a pretty woman with a cigarre in her mouth, eeck!! |
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mamabear New Member
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Hm. When I say "Jiminy Cricket" (or darn, etc.) I actually mean those words. They're a mild exclamation of consternation. There are words I try to avoid using, but occasionally they slip out (the ones previously mentioned). I have learned that if one avoids the use of the more astringent and less agreeable language, when it does slip out, people notice more. Andrea (my younger daughter) ran a web site called Silver's Stable for nine years, and had to work around the language thing in her forums. Listening to her talk about how she handled it made me more conscious of my own posting--can't be a bad example ;). Mamabear |
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Nir Senior Administrator
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How about sugar, as in "oh sugar", does that offend you too? What about when you see words spelt like a$$ ? oh $ugar. |
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mamabear New Member
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For me, that depends on who calls me that. I hate it when someone who *should* know my name (like nurses or doctors) calls me "sugar," or "honey," or "dear." I mean, my name is on the chart... I think any word can be misused, and either annoy, offend or irritate someone else. Most of us have our language usage inculcated at an early age. I do know that my husband, who at the time worked as a motorcycle mechanic, cleaned up his language considerably when our toddler daughter used a very nasty word in front of his mother. I grew up in the Southern part of the U.S., and was raised to believe that a lady does not use certain terms, nor does a gentleman when ladies or children are present. I now live in Southern California, where this is not the case. It has been...shall we say, enlightening. Mamabear |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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Nir wrote: How about sugar, as in "oh sugar", does that offend you too? I am not offended by anyone's language. My point is only that it makes the speaker much less attractive to me. Peter |
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Scoobees Distinguished Member 
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I rarely use 'foul' language, but was caught by the filter here with a word I didn't even think of as being foul. I was saying something to the effect of 'feeling like____' but I used the word 'rap' with a 'c' in front. |
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fsahurie New Member
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Peter wrote: Nir wrote:How about sugar, as in "oh sugar", does that offend you too? Peter, some people never had the good education that others had, as you say, we are all different so it is wise to understand everyone and their situation, every person has a story to tell. |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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I just looked up the "c word" and I suppose it's debatable whether or not it's profanity. But it's certainly vulgar. I guess you get to make these decisions when you create your own website. (I'm just being funny so don't take me too seriously.) About education... I made it through high school. Barely. I always use the spell check feature  when I post or you'd wonder if I got that far.Peter |
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mamabear New Member
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Btw, Peter, having heard some about Andrea, I'd *love* a guess at her age ;). Not if it would offend, and it won't offend me. I kind of feel very like a "granny" here (and my oldest grand child would be an 1100 lb horse...) Mamabear |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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I don't guess women's ages (men don't make such a fuss), and I don't say they look pregnant till I see the head coming out. My age (60) is in my profile for all to see. Peter |
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mamabear New Member
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Thank you, I don't feel...as knowledgeable. I'm 44. Nearing 45 ;). Andrea is nearing 21. Due to problems in the local school system (like they wouldn't actually *teach*), we decided to home school when our kids were 7 and 8. Andrea started her website at 11, and it ended about four months ago, (let's see...a little over nine years). Gene and I, as well as her older sister were available for problems, but *she* ran it, from age 11 till age 20. For a short time (maybe a year or two) I edited her monthly e-zine. I learned that the internet is *not* like print media, however I enjoyed it. Our eldest child is in the UK, and studying for her A levels. I doubt if even it were explained, I could translate. Jessica is 22. I hope no one minds my wandering from the topic at hand. It gets hard when those one has born are so far away. Mamabear |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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Peter wrote: My point is less logical. I'm simply saying that I think it's unattractive. When I wrote about talking with a mouth full of food, above, I was also thinking of chewing gum. I was watching Oprah on the treadmill the other day and they featured a high school band. It kept showing this drummer, and he was always chewing a big wad of gum with his mouth wide open. Probably the most exposure he'll get in his lifetime, and he looked like a cow! That's another pet peeve of mine... people who otherwise do so much to make themselves look good then think nothing of chewing a big wad of gum with their mouths open. So what's on the CBS Evening News last night? A British commoner, a very pretty one in fact, will miss the opportunity to become the future Queen of England because her mother chews gum (and speaks like the commoner she is). I think this is all quite ridiculous (though I know our British members may not think so!), but I was pleased to see that someone else noticed how awful she looked chewing her big wad of gum as she stood beside the Queen of England. Here's the story: cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/04/16/britain.snobbery.reut/index.html Peter |
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clarinetgurl Distinguished Member 
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I hate foul laguage, period. I think it is vulgar, and as Peter said, unattractive. Like someone else said, do you think that makes you cool? It doesn't. It makes you look like you don't know enough words to have a real converstion with throwing a curse word or euphinism (sp?) in every other breath. I don't use the "real words" or the euphinisms like jiminy cricket. The worst thing I say is "oh my goodness" and I don't like that I say that, but it is proving a hard habit to break. I am doing my best. I have to hear people spouting trash all day at school, and my whole family are very clean talkers. It's hard not to let them influence me... clar  |
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Aimless Distinguished Member 
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Oh dear. I think bad language should be restricted to times of high emotion, otherwise they lose their impact. Although, some people's swearing really fits in with their character/voice and you can't help but enjoy it ;) As for the filter on the forums, I've been caught out once so far with a rather mild word [in my opinion, anyway] which sounds the same as a certain structure built to block or regulate water flow, often with the result of flooding large areas of land. When I saw it had been replaced with the #%@&! I got really worried someone would read it as being something worse! |
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miss katz New Member
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I agree with you Aimless. I curse when I'm angry or when I'm trying to make a point or joke. I don't mind if others use it for this reason or just to be funny (comedians). Cursing can be funny  I rarely curse because there's no point in cursing, I'm usually polite, even when I'm angry, but when I see that someone doesn't consider my feelings even after I've told them they hurt my feelings I freely tell them to go - themselves, etc.When I get harrassed in the street I also have the need to curse people out. I don't mind being 'unattractive' to people that sexually harrass me. I also don't mind being 'unattrative' to people that couldn't give a rat's a-- for my feelings. It can be offensive depending on the person, but it's important for people to be themselves. I sometimes wish I could use foul language more freely. I don't think I defend myself enough to get my message across. Especially to people that like to preach on the subway and yell in my ear or while I'm reading. I just want to ............. but I think when people use curse words all the time for normal stuff I begin to wonder why they are so angry and it is unattractive and unnecessary Last edited on 23 Apr 2007 12:40 am by miss katz |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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Aimless wrote: As for the filter on the forums, I've been caught out once so far with a rather mild word [in my opinion, anyway] which sounds the same as a certain structure built to block or regulate water flow, often with the result of flooding large areas of land. Do you mean like Hoover Dam on the Colorado River? You shouldn't have a problem with the word "dam" unless you put an "n" on the end of it. Aimless, please let me know anytime you have a problem with this website. It's just my retirement hobby and I can use all the help I can get! Thanks, Peter |
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Aimless Distinguished Member
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Peter wrote: Do you mean like Hoover Dam on the Colorado River? You shouldn't have a problem with the word "dam" unless you put an "n" on the end of it. Haha yes, like the Aswan High Dam too That's what I meant. But in the context I used dam I think it looks really odd without an 'n'. It's not a problem though, don't worry about it, I love this place :) Everyone is so kind and helpful and supportive. Thanks for putting so much effort into it! |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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My advertisers won't allow "dam" with an "n" on the end. And without them this free website would go away. Personally, I think I'm more attractive when I never use "foul" language. But there are a few words that are not disgusting -- like your dam word -- and I prefer to use those when I can't contain myself. If you stop and think about it, some of the most common words people use -- like the four letter "s" word -- are actually disgusting. I go back to my original point. Why would someone come to this website day after day to get help making themselves look nicer, watch what they eat and do for exercise, make their hair and clothes and skin look as nice as possible... then after their date picks them us say, "I'm sorry I'm late but my #%@&! ex kept calling and the #%@&! phone was ringing off the #%@&! wall!" I guess because their date wouldn't think a thing of it and would reply, "My #%@&! ex calls too and I just tell them to go to #%@&!. I hate #%@&! #%@&! #%@&! exes!" Peter |
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Aimless Distinguished Member
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Oh the conclusion to that story, with his reply, really made me chuckle. |
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miss katz New Member
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Maybe that person was angry before their date and was expressing their anger, but I agree it is rude to take it out on their dates, and very offensive. When I write I usually put a - if I want to say a curse word. I think it's inappropriate to write it and don't want to offend readers. If I see someone cursing in their diary or blog I am turned off and will probably not read much further. I understand anger, but people should have more self-control and respect for others. |
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Fatale New Member
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I used to have a coworker who is really pretty, stunning, but she's the biggest "foulmouth" I've ever met (even worse than our friend who's a cop and cusses all the time) It seems she can not finnish a sentence without a variation of the F-word in it. Everything is F-ing this and F-ing that! I believe that people should be able to bring a point across without the help of foul language. No matter how beautiful she is, it makes her "ugly" and "trashy" When I first moved to the US, I used swearwords all the time, because I thought it's proof that I know the language when I know all the nasty words. Well, this has changed and I rarely ever swear. I now believe that speaking a language fluently means expressing oneself appropriately! |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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Well said! |
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Scribbler Distinguished Member 
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I must say I agree with Peter 100% on this, as well as Fatale's remark. I'd like to add that common insults distress me as well. The ones I hear quite often, for example, addressed to an individual or situation as being 'gay' or 'retarded'. Perhaps I'm too thin-skinned, but such generic insults not only lower the speaker in my esteem, but strike me as ignorant and callous as well. |
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clarinetgurl Distinguished Member
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I completely agree! And I have to hear that kind of stuff all day at school...even my friends say it sometimes! It gets on my last nerve. CG |
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OWF Distinguished Member 
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Well...I certainly don't fit in here. You will probably all lose respect for me now. But I am a truly honest (to a fault) person so here goes me, turning myself in: I swear. ALOT. I almost can't even help it and sometimes its ridiculously funny to most people but sometimes (out of anger) I can see it offending people too. So, over the last 8 years I have tried to use the "f" word alot less, for my husband's sake. He says it causes my body undue stress. He was raised in a tight close happy healthy wealthy family. They apparently (which I found INSANELY WEIRD coming from where I did and how I was raised!!) don't swear. AT ALL. Yeah. I guess I should have respect for that, but I am going to be honest here (don't automatically HATE me, just try to see it from my point of view-you don't have to agree at all, just UNDERSTAND) ....I kinda don't see it that way. I think there comes a time and a place for serious swearing and can be helpful SOMETIMES. I can tell you this....between my monthly battles with the fraudulent insurance companies....and the run around they have given me to avoid paying what they legally CONTRACTED to pay...I have used severely foul language with them!! I have HAD IT with them!! Now.....I don't think education has anything to do with this subject matter as I have more of an education than my husband's ENTIRE FAMILY-mom and dad and sisters included. I graduated high school with honors and I put myself through college twice and graduated with an A.A.S. in Paralegal Studies and a B.A. in Communications. I also hold a license to sell investments and insurance for NYS. I am an actress/waitress right now(swearing comes into play in my career ALOT too-depending on the dramatic effect of the role I am hired to play) ANYWAY...I was raised in a poor family (mother went to 9th grade, got pregnant, dropped out had my brother and I, father went to 5th grade and dropped out to become a garbage man and brother graduated high school and never went to college.) and my household was EXTREMELY VIOLENT on a DAILY basis. We were verbally abused (I heard the very vulgar "c" word when I was 7-my mother called me something (a very specific type of prostitute) most of you would probably faint or throw up if you heard it because I didn't do my chores...um, yeah.) My mother swears constantly and without reason. I don't agree with this anymore, but its tough to break bad habits when you learned them and were around them for 30 years. I think there can be a BALANCE for me. I think I need to cut down on the swearing alot and not completely STOP it altogether. It can be funny and harmless, but the way my family is, it hasn't been at all. I am working on myself. I am a work in progress I guess. And I forgot who wrote on this forum about common insults like "gay" and "retarded" but I completely AGREE!! See...my husband and his family don't swear, but they will freely use insults like "gay" and think nothing of it, whereas, I do not use that type of language as I think it states prejudice. We fight over this. He thinks its harmless. I think it shows your ignorance. SO I am from one side of the tracks and hubby is from the WAY other side. Interesting what we can learn from each other. Last edited on 22 Jul 2007 04:54 pm by OWF |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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OWF, I want to be really clear that when I ask why people want to swear so much I'm not talking about morals or values or ethics or whatever. I'm only talking about why someone that goes to such an effort to lose weight and otherwise improve their appearance would be so inconsistent as to continue to have unbecoming speech. It's the inconsistency that I don't understand. I totally agree that people with any level of education can use foul language. However, my point about foul language and education is that when you use a lot of foul language you appear to be less educated. The thing about calling people "gay" is that you don't know who within earshot is gay and will be hurt by it. Or who within earshot knows and respects a gay person and will think less of the person making the insult rather than the person it's directed at. Peter |
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Sassykat Distinguished Member 
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I have to agree with you Peter, foul language is a turn off, as is gum chewing, and dirty jokes. I can understand being a product of our environment, but I had a hard upbringing and I choose a different life for myself and my children. And there is a huge lack of morals in our society which makes the foul language and dirty jokes that much more of a turn off. I know a couple of people that I care about who use bad language and I just feel sort of a pity for them, there are some who really have disgusting mouths and that I choose not to be around, so there are different levels of swearing/ bad language. I do use some exclamations like "oh shoot!", "coun found it!" and "gosh darn it!" all of these my mother use to say. To my ears, they sound a lot better than the other ones. People don't seem to worry anymore about offending others or hurting their feelings or worry about having manners. Peter, I know you said, you didn't mean for this to be a discussion about morals, but that is what it truly is, when you come down to it. If a person is raised with some guidlines, then they give some thought as to how they speak in the first place. If they are careless in their actions and their words, chances are they don't care about offending others and they don't care if they are truly "attractive", then again what are they trying to attract with the words they are using? That said, this in no way is being said to judge ObsessedWithFitness. We need to be kind and forgiving and help each other out. It does no good to judge each other. I'm just giving my view on the foul language post, mostly because I was recently offended and upset by a disgusting dirty joke someone told. Being sexually abused in my past has made me sensitive to this sort of thing and I found it upsetting. |
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CareS New Member
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I always think that people who use foul language and the "F word" as a descriptive adjective are totally lacking or deficient in vocabulary skills. There are so many more interesting and varied descriptive words in the English language. After a while the "F" word is boring and doesn't have any impact whatsoever. Perhaps these people should invest in a dictionary and Thesaurus. Swearing in public is definitely unattractive and demeaning. CareS |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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CareS, You make an interesting point about it losing its impact. I mean, some people will argue... don't be such a fuss! Sometimes people get upset and just need to express themselves. True, but that argument doesn't work for someone who uses the F word all day long! About the thesaurus, I can vividly remember one day 25 years ago when my daughter said, "That was really, really, really good." and I used the opportunity to teach her about finding different words such as "very" and "incredibly." What's funny is that since that day I have laughed inside many times when I have said that something was really, really good! Sometimes it just feels right! Peter |
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CareS New Member
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Hi Peter, I know I would pick up bad words after hearing them repeatedly from my sons who at the time thought it was cool to talk like that. I got so fed up that I took a bar of sunlight soap and told them to wash their mouthes with it. They didn't of course. Now that they are older, I rarely hear them swear. I have a story about swearing. My late husband used bad language, particularly when he was working at something that wasn't going well. He had a voice that carried, some people do. We lived in the suburban countryside at the time and I could hear him out in the yard cursing and swearing about something in his naturally loud voice. I was inspired to write him a letter from a "fictious neighbor" who supposedly heard him swearing. I wrote it with my left hand so he wouldn't recognize the writing. I will never forget the expression on his face when I brought him "the mail". In it there was a letter from an anonymous neighbor talking about the foul language coming from this property, a man's voice. She was a Christian woman concerned about the well being of her children being exposed to "such awful language" and wished that it would stop. The look on my husband's face was priceless, shock and then bewilderment when he recognized his stationery and the fact that when he opened the letter the glue on the envelope wasn't even dry and just peeled open easily. He recognized the culprit --me, but after that there was much less swearing. Just thought I would share this story. CareS |
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guitargirl New Member
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That it's unattractive is one person's opinion. Granted, it is probably shared by a lot of men. Swearing is usually done when a person doesn't have the time or intelligence or eloquence to express what they want to say properly. So they summon swear words to overcompensate for their intellectual inadequacy, to shock, or make them look powerful. That being said, I am a user of the top five myself. Usually only around friends. I have had men tell me they think it's funny or even intriguing when a girl swears like a sailor, but for the most part in any professional, academic or most social events, I try to keep my use of the F word to a minimum. It is kind of trashy sounding, after all. |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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When I was working for a computer company back in the '70s, about half the staff dressed very casually, and the other half dressed in business attire. I asked my wife what she thought I should do, and she suggested picking out someone I'd like to be like and copying them. So I did. I guess with dress and language it makes sense to try to behave as we'd like to become. I'd rather be articulate, and I don't consider someone using frequent foul language to be articulate, though I suppose others might. Peter |
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guitargirl New Member
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Peter, Interesting reply! I myself, as a student of journalism and amateur writer, would be considered an articulate person, overall. When I speak I know how to command attention, I think I have a fairly large vocabulary (then again, many do when many don't!) and, as my profession would require, a stronger grasp of the English language than most of the population (that sounds so pompous but you know what I mean!) So, because I have swore and do swear, do you think that it negates the fact that I am, to all appearances, very articulate and again, as my subject of studies would require, intelligent? (Again, remember that I don't use foul language in professional or academic situations). I ask this only as a discussion question, not as a retaliation to your reply. I think you forget the fact that many people do not consciously pluck the word "#%@&!" (hint: it rhymes) out of their word list and pepper it throughout their conversations. I think it is something so socially rampant that, in most casual situations at least, it's not considered taboo, or as you would say, unattractive. |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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Like I said, "I suppose others might." If I hear every other word being foul I just can't get by that to think of the person as being articulate, even if they are! It's a personal thing, but I go back to my original point in my original post in which I relate the foul language to losing weight to make yourself look better. To me, that conflicts with spouting gross words in every phrase. Probably even more people would disagree with my opinion that it's as bad for your image to go up onto the stage to receive your diploma chewing a big wad of gum with your mouth open like a cow. But I guess that's acceptable nowadays, just as foul language is. Peter |
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Scribbler Distinguished Member
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I think that what is acceptable depends entirely on the situation -- who the people involved are and where they are. Mostly the former. What is acceptable or unacceptable is entirely subjective. I'd like to think that even in the U.S. (I can't speak for other countries/cultures) rampant use of crude language/behavior isn't widely accepted. Perhaps the outrage over various wardrobe malfunctions, profanity broadcast from the sidelines, and insulting ignorance from shock jocks can be taken as signs that our culture hasn't completely lost all grace and decorum. I like to think so, but then I don't watch MTV. Back on subject, though, foul language has its place. I think what makes it unattractive to me is when it's used carelessly. That's when my esteem of the speaker ticks down. At one of my former jobs, a coworker I was often with used the F word quite frequently, apparently as nothing more than filler, a handy noun or verb. He was a nice young man and would control it when asked. I actually found him very attractive and personable. If things had been different (he was married, I engaged), I would have liked to take things further. But whenever the f's started flowing, I could feel myself moving away from him. It wasn't and isn't the word itself. I'm not bothered by swearing when it's necessary (fradulant insurance companies would be a completely sincere use, right up there with burns and hammers on fingers ;)). Perhaps part of it is the way I was raised. But I've noticed that I'm beginning to react the same way, to a lesser degree, when my husband says that something was done 'good' when 'well' would be correct. I suppose in my mind part of beauty is intelligence while ignorance is ugly. I wonder if I see swearing as an abuse of the language; that may be part of it. Hmm. :) |
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Trixie.in.Dixie New Member 
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It definitely does depend upon the situation. In a work place, or in a public place where one's voice will carry easily (restaurant or shop) it's just plain ignorant to spew profanity carelessly or without regard to who might hear or the impression it will give. Then again, I don't have a problem with profanity. I use certain words easily and without regret. I grew up with parents who are educated, intelligent, professionals and they cursed when I was a kid - and still do - but mostly in more "personal" settings. They aren't the types to yell across a parking lot or a crowded store, and they certainly don't make themselves look like yahoos by using informal language like common curse words in public. Hypocritical? I think not. There are many ways in which we all present ourselves differently in public, and especially our work places. For most of us, it's a natural division between our private and public selves. I see nothing wrong with that! When I hear someone using (what I think is) excessive profanity in public, I think that they must have no sense of dignity. To me it's like using bad grammar - it's lazy and careless and low-class... |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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Trixie.in.Dixie wrote: Then again, I don't have a problem with profanity. I use certain words easily and without regret. I grew up with parents who are educated, intelligent, professionals and they cursed when I was a kid - and still do - but mostly in more "personal" settings. They aren't the types to yell across a parking lot or a crowded store, and they certainly don't make themselves look like yahoos by using informal language like common curse words in public. Hypocritical? I think not. There are many ways in which we all present ourselves differently in public, and especially our work places. For most of us, it's a natural division between our private and public selves. I see nothing wrong with that! Trixie, I have no problem with the topic wandering. Makes for interesting discussion. But I would like to point out that my orginal point in bringing up this topic had nothing to do with whether it's okay or not. It was about being attractive. Picture a Miss Universe contestant on-stage answering a final question in the competition. At this point for her to use a gross word (not all profanity is gross) would be the equivalent of her passing gas loudly. It's not a matter of right or wrong, it's about being attractive. And that's what this website is about... as well as health and peace of mind. Peter |
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CodeMonkey New Member
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Peter, I had been meaning to reply to this ever since I read it and just kept putting it off until now. I will admit, I've been turned off by women who cuss. I remember one news anchor that I thought was georgous on TV, but saw her in a grocery store and was turned off by the language she used while there. It's obvious she could have refrained from making these comments since she doesn't say them on the air, she should have refrained from using that language where children were present. Then again, she was noticably upset at something while trying to purchase some items. When I met my wife she didn't cuss until one day she was real upset about something and her language became very offensive. I'm talking about enough to make a sailor blush, I thought for sure she had Tourette's or something. I try not to point fingers toward her but I do ask her to try and refrain from using that type of language around the kids. When she explodes into the constant barrage of f-words I don't even want to be around her. Now she rarely blows up like she used to, so the cussing has decreased. Unfortunately the kids have picked it up and I get after them for using certain words. I rarely cuss, the only word I use often is dam (with the n at the end), and even then I use it only when I'm upset. I feel if a conversation could be made without bad language, it gets across better. I've had co-workers and employers who chose to have discussions while using the F-word (while not being upset) and it just makes me lose all kind of respect for them. I admit I did cuss while growing up, some of the cuss words I used I didn't realize it was bad. I grew up with deaf parents who obviously couldn't correct me for some words I used when they couldn't hear me say them. But anyway, back to the original topic. If I was single and went on a date with a woman who cussed, I don't think there would be a second date. Well, unless the cussing was warranted and it depends on what was said. If she is using the f-word or the s-word during regular conversation that would be enough to not want to see her again. I am curious though. I've seen how some men who find women that cuss to be unattractive, but what about the other way around? Do women find men who cuss to be unattractive as well? |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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Hey MudMan, You mention using d-a-m-n. That and God and h-e-l-l are not gross. They are the words I prefer to use when I can't help myself. Think about most of the other profane words. They are ugly to picture. About men... if it's more acceptable with men I suspect it's because some consider it to be a masculine characteristic. But there's no difference for me. Peter |
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Trixie.in.Dixie New Member
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Peter wrote: Trixie.in.Dixie wrote:Then again, I don't have a problem with profanity. I use certain words easily and without regret. I grew up with parents who are educated, intelligent, professionals and they cursed when I was a kid - and still do - but mostly in more "personal" settings. They aren't the types to yell across a parking lot or a crowded store, and they certainly don't make themselves look like yahoos by using informal language like common curse words in public. Hypocritical? I think not. There are many ways in which we all present ourselves differently in public, and especially our work places. For most of us, it's a natural division between our private and public selves. I see nothing wrong with that! Okay, I guess I didn't make myself clear enough. I thought I was answering the question that you asked, which was whether or not the use of profanity makes a person less attractive. And you mention weight loss as a way in which people do change their physical appearances. You mention people being concerned with physical appearance like weight, hair, clothes, skin and then ask why someone who cares about those things would also curse. The simple answer that sounds childish is, "The words that come out of a person's mouth cannot change the physical appearance of that person, period. So cursing, cussing, whatever you want to call it, will not under any circumstances change the visual." To be a little more explanatory and to make a reasonable adult statement takes a little more thought in my opinion. So, I was explaining my own point of view, as everyone else was allowed to do. Perhaps I should say it a different way: A person's impression of another will certainly be based upon the physical body, but also the character that is projected, by behavior and words. Whether or not profanity is considered to be a factor that will subtract points from a person's perceived attractiveness is in the ear of the beholder and to each who hears a different impression may it be perceived. That means my answer to the question is, "It depends". I don't have a problem with profanity and don't think that profanity in and of itself is wrong, bad, or unattractive, within reason (to me). If I said that I find a person who uses profanity to be unattractive, not only would I be hypocritical, but I would be oversimplifying the concept of "attractive". |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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I'm writing this for fun... somewhat tongue-in-cheek... Certainly someone that swears all the time wouldn't find someone else that swears unattractive. So that comes into play, too. Same with smoking or chewing gum. Heck, MudMan (CodeMonkey) would probably find a woman with mud all over her attractive! Peter |
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abnormalapathy Distinguished Member 
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CareS wrote: I always think that people who use foul language and the "F word" as a descriptive adjective are totally lacking or deficient in vocabulary skills. There are so many more interesting and varied descriptive words in the English language. After a while the "F" word is boring and doesn't have any impact whatsoever. Perhaps these people should invest in a dictionary and Thesaurus. Swearing in public is definitely unattractive and demeaning. CareS I have excellent vernacular, and I curse all the time. For some of us, it's not a matter of a lack of education, but of choice. |
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Trixie.in.Dixie New Member
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Uh-oh! I smoke and chew gum, too!! Sometimes at THE SAME TIME. Seriously. |
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CodeMonkey New Member
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Peter wrote: Heck, MudMan (CodeMonkey) would probably find a woman with mud all over her attractive! Actually, I probably would! Any woman who's not afraid to get down and dirty and have some fun would be okay in my book. I dated one girl who drove a motorcycle and I always thought that was so cool! But, I crashed my motorcycle and she laughed saying that girls were better than boys at driving motorcycles, so she wasn't cool anymore.  I do smoke and I do chew gum (I plan on doing more now that I'm trying to quit smoking). I don't like to smoke around non-smokers though, and I don't open my mouth when I chew gum. Also constantly popping gum is really annoying as well. I've been told by non-smokers that I can smoke in their car but I won't do it. I have no problem waiting. Ooh, I pulled a muscle patting myself on the back. Ouch. I finally got my prescription filled to quit smoking so give me a couple days and I'll be trying to go smoke-free. |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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I don't have an issue with gum if the person keeps their mouth closed while chewing it. Same with eating at the dinner table!  However, I have seen people on TV in the big public moment of their life chewing like a cow. I'd have to go back to the Miss Universe contestant at the microphone again. Just not the time to be chewing gum. I'm not tolerant of being around someone that's smoking, but when someone says it's their vice I'm totally accepting. It's addictive, just like food. Been there! (Still am!!) Peter |
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Ohm Senior Member 
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I think tolerance is a big element here, but rights and responsibilities are relevant too, Swearing doesn't make someone stupid. I have an IQ well into the genius range, but I swear sometimes. Sometimes I swear in frustration, when "oh my goodness" and "whoopsee daisy" just doesn't do the job for me. Sometimes I swear in shock and exclamation, and yes, sometimes I swear for comic effect. I don't litter my conversation with it, but sometimes swearing for emphasis is the easiest way to get the point across. Sometimes, a swear word (especially if it is a rare event and one you have made your own) can break the tension and bring good humour (this is Uk spelling, not a typo) back into a fraught and frustrating situation. This does not mean that I condone littering ones utterances with expletives and sexual references, but I have also learned to see past this verbal debris. The use of foul language does not necesssarily indicate that the user stupid; it does not (contrary to common belief) denote a small vocabulary. It may just indicate that they choose to swear. It is important to remember that it is not sensible to disregard the statements and ideas of someone just because they swear frequently or fluently. Admittedly, it may be harder to force yourself to attend to what they are saying if you first have to delete all the expletives, but I know many academics like myself who are perfectly capable of swearing fluently, under the right circumstances. Apparently the Queen Mum used to swear like a trooper, as does HRH herself (so we are led to believe). People swear for many different reasons: they may swear to fit in, they may swear because it is the norm for them, they may swear because it seems exciting, thay may even swear to demonstrate an evident rebellion. Many people have multiple active personae, swearing for some and and not for others. This can be quite normal. I find limiting my swearing to situations where it is less likely to offend acceptable. I try very hard not to swear in front of children, especially my own. I do however, totally acknowledged that everyone has the right to choose how to conduct themselves. Until the decency police come knocking on my door at 4 in the morning, I shall continue to see myself as a responsible citizen, and I think I'm doing OK. When it come to how this relates to my level of attractiveness - 2 points: 1/Well, I'm not the most physically attractive person in the world - especially in the nip! I've dealt with this. 2/As far as I am concerned, there are more important factors than what people may or may not think of my level of attractiveness. Of course, this is coming from a heavily overweight 40 yr old who has sought validation in other areas of her life and has come to terms with the fact that she will probably never be a centrefold model. Come on folks, challenge me. Believe me, sometimes I talk absolute b**ll**cks. Last edited on 11 Sep 2007 07:04 am by Ohm |
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Calico New Member
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Ok, I haven't chimed in, in a very loooooonnnnngg time but I will on this subject. I personally believe that foul language is unattractive and can spoil the otherwise beautiful look of any person using it. I have never used any foul language and was even taught never to use 'gosh' or 'golly' because they were too close to "God". When I do use 'shoot' or 'darn' or 'dang' they are exactly what I mean, I am not using them to replace the 'bad' words. I was never exposed to the bad words growing up so these words were just what they are words I used not knowing that they in some people's minds were replacing 'bad' words. I think people especially educated people should be aware of what they are saying and make efforts not to use offensive language. My kids don't use foul language either but I am sure they have heard some even from their grandmother who doesn't use if often but occasionally will say 'forgive my French' if she lets one slip. Ok, that is all and if you are wondering yes I was raised in a minister's family and I am a preacher's daughter and we NEVER, LOL!!!! God bless you Annette Last edited on 12 Sep 2007 02:13 pm by Calico |
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Ohm Senior Member
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Hi Calico, you know what, I think that's just great. I really do. There can't be many people these days who can put their hand on their heart and declare themselves innocent of fould language. I almost feel that congratulations are in order! And thanks for the blessing. Becci x |
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rainbeaux78 New Member
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I've never posted a comment or forum in my life, but this one has me sucked in. I just have to say that I agree with so many people out here. I used to use foul language...in junior high. As so many kids do, I wanted to look and seem older than I was. I came to the conclusion that it wasn't really all that cool anymore, and have been (mostly) dirty language free since then (I'm now 29). When people ask me about it, here are my responses: 1. The Bible says we should keep our minds and hearts pure, and something about keeping our tongue clean (I'm not great for quoting, I'm better at general ideas... ). I believe that God prefers not to have that filth polluting my insides, and I don't think he likes to hear it either. My time and tongue could be better spent building people up with encouragement, you know?2. The only reason that foul language even is foul language is because someone decided one day, "Hey, I think I'm going to make....be a bad word." I mean, really, who decided that a four letter word beginning with an F would signify X, Y and Z? I just decided in my own little protest to that person that I wouldn't use the language. I don't need it to express myself or my ideas, and I don't think any one person (or group of people) should have that power over my speech. It's my own way to "stick it to 'em". Now, I do realize that this sort of goes against my previous thing about encouraging people, but whoever chose these words doesn't know me...and I doubt they are still living. I also don't lecture others about their verbal choices.Please don't hate me. Just thought I'd share my ideas. |
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rainbeaux78 New Member
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Becci, I do have to say that I am certainly intrigued by your British foul language. I can never decide if a word that I hear (in a movie, for example) is truly a BAD word, or if it is simply a mild word to express consternation. Thanks for the asterisks in the "B" word...I haven't used it before because, in context, it seems dangerously close to the (what I think) American "F" word. Now, I think I may have been right. Though I do love the sound of it. Sort of goes with my #2 reason not to use bad language. Someone "across the pond" decided that your "B" word was bad. That stinks, cause it's such a cute word! Now, why'd they have to go do that!?! Ha, ha! |
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Ohm Senior Member
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HIya Rainbeaux, you know, we British can do some very funny things with language. As an insult, we use everything in the farmyard except a duck, which we make use of in cricket instead! Yes, (sigh), I have to admit that the "B" word is a crude word used to describe the multipe items of male genitalia - the roughly spherical dangly items! Stricly speaking, it isn't a swear word, just a crude expression (as opposed to a crudite, which is a dish of raw vegetables cut into sticks or bite sizes). We do tend to lump crude expressions with swear words, but all of them would probably fit under the umberella term "foul language". Any other terms and words requiring translation? Last edited on 12 Sep 2007 03:13 pm by Ohm |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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Calico wrote: I have never used any foul language and was even taught never to use 'gosh' or 'golly' because they were too close to "God". When I do use 'shoot' or 'darn' or 'dang' they are exactly what I mean, I am not using them to replace the 'bad' words. I was never exposed to the bad words growing up so these words were just what they are words I used not knowing that they in some people's minds were replacing 'bad' words. I might have already posted this comment above -- can't remember -- but I used to regularly listen to a religious show on talk radio and the "minister" that ran the show regularly used words like "doggie poop" instead of the S word. I always thought it sounded silly, and unbecoming of someone in his position. As kids in the '50s we would say "Jiminy Cricket" in place of Jesus Christ. But we grew up! Peter P.S. See how mature I am today... with a monkey after my name. |
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rainbeaux78 New Member
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Becci Aryal wrote: Any other terms and words requiring translation? What about "Sawed it." and other variations? You also say you use Duck  in Cricket. How so? Is it the equivelant to yelling "Fore" in golf when you are about to hit someone with your shot? Last edited on 12 Sep 2007 04:38 pm by rainbeaux78 |
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rainbeaux78 New Member
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Fatale wrote: I now believe that speaking a language fluently means expressing oneself appropriately! Wow, Fatale! I couldn't agree more! If only more Americans believed the same. I can't say how unappetizing it is to sit in a nice restaurant and have my dinner and conversation disrupted by some yahoo at the next table throwing F-bombs around. And, I guess I never answered Peter's initial question...Yes, I think it is excessively unattractive when people use foul language. |
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rainbeaux78 New Member
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Hyacinth wrote:
Oh my goodness!!! Hyacinth, I thought I was the only person in the universe who didn't appreciate when people call things "retarded"! Thank you, thank you, thank you for mentioning that on here!!! I have banned the word from my house, and my children know it's unacceptable. Unfortunately, it has become such a common phrase in our society today that nearly everyone and her brother uses the expression. I don't appreciate using the term "gay" or calling people "homos" either. My ex-brother in law thought he would be cute and started calling my ex husband a "homeowner" instead...I just don't get how people don't see the slight that this is to specific people or groups of people. Wish the world would learn a lot more respect for others. Sad...  |
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Ohm Senior Member
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What about "Sawed it." and other variations? Apparently (and I am not really into cricket - dont really understand the game) to hit a duck in cricket means that you didn't score anything. But there again to hit a six doesn't necessarily mean that you scored 6 runs - very comlicated game! We taught India and the West Indies to play it and now they thoroughly enjoy trouncing us at it! I am so sorry, but I don't know what you mean by "sawed". Could you give me an example, Rainbeaux? I think it is excessively unattractive when people use foul language.Oh, and sorry to be pedantic (whose kidding who, I love it !) but if something can be excessively unnattractive, is there a level of unnattractiveness which is not excessive?But: I wholeheartedly agree with you. B |
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rainbeaux78 New Member
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Becci Aryal wrote: What about "Sawed it." and other variations? Well, I've heard Hugh (Grant, of course) say, "Oh, sawed a dog!" or something to that effect in the movies before. Does that ring any bells? It's probably lost in accent. Woe is me...I'll never know! I think it is excessively unattractive when people use foul language. Oh, and sorry to be pedantic (whose kidding who, I love it I do think it is possible to be only slightly unattractive versus excessively unattractive. |
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Trixie.in.Dixie New Member
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I think you mean "sod it"! Which I always thought meant something like "to heck with it" or maybe worse. |
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Ohm Senior Member
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Oh yes, Trixie, you are probably right. Actually, sod it is one of the oldest and most intentionally offensive of our Anglo-Saxon verbalisations, referring to sodomy as practised in Sodom and Gomorrah (not sure on the spelling on that last). B |
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ylvisaker New Member
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My dad was very strict about calling anyone a name or using any word that wasn't proper English and it stuck with me for many, many years. I raised my kids with the same restrictions - no name calling, no swear words and no words that are replacements for swear words. Then I got a job in the local high school and heard that kind of language all day long. I heard my kids use that language in the high school halls and around their friends too. I did talk to them about the difference between peer language and respectful language. I accepted that there is simply a different language that teenagers use, but did ask my kids as well as their friends to please not use it in front of me and corrected them when they did. It seems like teenage language to me. My kids seem to have outgrown it - I don't hear slippages anymore and they feel repulsed with people who use it excessively. I don't want to cast any stereotypes, but having worked with a population of adults with substance/alcohol abuse/dependence issues, I have found that this "teenage" language continues into adulthood (18-70, both genders) with these folks. It seems like people with addiction problems are somewhat mentally and emotionally frozen in the time when they first started using. Many have been in significant legal trouble, have problems holding down jobs, and skate on the edge of financial disaster. I infrequently hear it around my own peers. It is usually blurted out from frustration that pushes someone to the limit. I still don't care to use it myself. I recognize that it is part of some peoples' lives. But I still associate frequent use of that language with a struggling population. I wonder if it might be a little piece of what holds them back from being more successful. Who knows... but it is offensive to some people and can lead to judgments, as unfair as they may be. I'm 51 and have 3 kids out of the home... I love being 51! |
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Ohm Senior Member
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My dad was very strict about calling anyone a name or using any word that wasn't proper English Good for him, but actually, some of the terms regarded as swearwords, or bad language are actually ancient in their own right and predate our politically correct preferred terms. The F word, for example, has been in common usage for around a thousand years, as was a certain c word (which even I find beyond the pail - the "see-you-next-tuesday word"). Indeed, one of the milder terms, "berk", now used to describe someone who is a bit of a wally, or fool was originally rhyming slang for the "see-you-next-tuesday word" - shortened from "a member of the Berkley Hunt". This term has now largely fallen out of usage. So you see, sometimes the words that really offend actually have more historical claim to legitimacy than more modern terms and words. English is a really dynamic and living language. Which still doesn't mean that I necessarily endorse swearing willy-nilly. |
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Trixie.in.Dixie New Member
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Fantastic, Becci - I love language origins, and I am especially fascinated by the differences between American English and "the King's English". I have family who are from Jersey (Island, that is) and they have always been a fascination to me, too. When my cousin, who is my age, first moved to Atlanta to teach school, she lived with me for about 2 years. I learned loads about British slang and found myself asking her to explain things to me all the time. I felt like I had learned a secret code! How cool! Her brother has a friend named Burke, and I remember her telling me how hilarious they all thought it was, but he (Burke) thought they were just weird, because of course, most Americans don't know the word "berk". Ha. How about that innocent and old-fashion word that older folks use to mean one's bottom, or backside? Rhymes with "Granny?". I cracked up when I found out what that means across the pond! Oops! Last edited on 12 Sep 2007 07:57 pm by Trixie.in.Dixie |
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Ohm Senior Member
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Yes, that particular term is another alternative for the "see-you-next-tuesday" word I mentioned in my last post (it actually refers to the female genitalia. No offence and just btw, we tend to say "the Queen's English" at the moment (only since 1952 when HRH (Lizzy) came to the throne . Becci Last edited on 12 Sep 2007 08:01 pm by Ohm |
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Trixie.in.Dixie New Member
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Whoops again - see, we have no idea, we Americans. |
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Ohm Senior Member
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No problem - I don't think she uses this website! Anywa, this is the boss-mans thread and we are getting off the point, which was something like "do peole think that the use of foul language makes one less attractive?" - or words to that effect - but it's just so easy to get sidetracked!  |
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Trixie.in.Dixie New Member
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Yes, I was afraid of getting off topic because it is so easy - if we were to start a new topic about language, what could we call it? I like anything about language and origins of words, phrases, regional differences, and slang - esp. the American/British differences. We need a starter idea or question.... |
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Ohm Senior Member
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I'll think on it and PM you. Just made a huge loaf of garlic and rosemary bread - I've divided it up between the six of us and I am about to slink off to bed and consume my share. Yum G'night  Becci |
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Trixie.in.Dixie New Member
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Sounds good - and the bread sounds divine. |
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clarinetgurl Distinguished Member
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rainbeaux78 wrote: I've never posted a comment or forum in my life, but this one has me sucked in. I just have to say that I agree with so many people out here. I used to use foul language...in junior high. As so many kids do, I wanted to look and seem older than I was. I came to the conclusion that it wasn't really all that cool anymore, and have been (mostly) dirty language free since then (I'm now 29). When people ask me about it, here are my responses: Ok, I haven't chimed in, in a very loooooonnnnngg time but I will on this subject. Thank you! I agree... Jam 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Jam 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! Jam 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity; so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of #%@&!. Jam 3:8 But the tonguencan no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. 1Pe 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: ---taken from e-sword, the KJV CG |
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Ohm Senior Member
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Morning Trixie I had a blast of inspiration in the night (regarding you new thread about language). How about "TRANSATLANTIC TRANSLATIONS" and the descxription could "TWO NATIONS SEPARATED BY A COMMON LANGUAGE". Please, if anyone sees this, don't pinch Trixie's idea. Let her start the thread, please. Becci Edit: Whoops, please don't let me have killed this thread. Loads of you must disagree with what I have said. So many people, so many opinions. Somone tell me they disagree. Please. Last edited on 15 Sep 2007 05:56 pm by Ohm |
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ch133 New Member
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I have read many of the comments on this topic and there are some really good arguments here but to me it is a sign of respect. I grew up thinking it was tough or cool to swear... so I did. Not until I grew up did it occur to me how ugly it really is. I now am a father and it really bothers me when I blurt out an obscenity (in frustration) when my little girl is with me. I feel like I have shown her a disregard and myself as well. I am old enough to know better... and I don't really need to put on that dog and pony show anymore. I actually asked a young man who was useing the f word repeatedly to describe every action or object he spoke of to stop it. He was offending me. I felt that he could show a little more respect for me, himself and his parents by having a little control on his speach around strangers or the uncle of his friend. He clammed up and put some thought into my request (I hope) because I am sure he was a decent boy just running off at the mouth. I do believe foul language is acceptable in the right company at the appropriate time. I am a greasy mechanic who rides a Harley. When I am with my chums I like to tell and I like to hear the odd dirty joke... life is good. I would just rather keep it clean with people I have a high regard for like my parents and kids and people who I am wanting to appear my best to like strangers and important people like my my employer and customers. I do have to be in some control of my behavior and act professional at times too. So I think foul language has its place but you really need to choose wisely who you share it with to show respect and to earn it. Lets face it most of these words we use are hundreds of years old and the are never going to go away . We just have to choose and use them when appropriate. Its kinda like learning to diet and eat right. For the first time I am watching what I put into my mouth to be a better person healthwise so why not mind what comes out of my mouth to be a better person socially because no matter what some people might say... it is important what other think of you too not just what you think of yourself. |
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rainbeaux78 New Member
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I couldn't agree more! I actually took on two young, drunk Cubs fans on the train ride away from Wrigley Field. That would have been extremely scary, but my husband is 6'4", 250 lbs. Plus, there was an entire train full of people that kept giving these two an evil eye as well. Amazingly, one did respect my polite request and kept his mouth shut ~ the other kept spouting off. However, the respectful one did try to keep his friend in line. It turns out that if he wasn't pouring out the "F" Bombs, he couldn't stay awake ~ he passed out shortly thereafter. |
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Ohm Senior Member
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No names, no pack drill but..... Earlier inthis thread various people have mentioned the phenomenon of people using alternatives to swear words. Some of them have been quite derisory, noting that using X instead of Y is no better than simply saying Y if people know that you really mean Y (insert prefered terms in place of X and Y). I've been pondering this for a while, and debating wether I should say anything ............and I have decided to say what I think (publish and be errrrrr, disapproved of ).Who are these people? The thought police? I can see how flagrant swearing, cussing and cursing might be considered to be offensive, especially in certain circumstances where it would be highly innappropriate, but to complain because an alternative term is used to replace the offensive term because of the connotations in the listener's mind? Come on. To paraphrase Lewis Carrol's Humpty Dumpty - a word means what I intend it to mean, no more, no less. So how do we step inside the speakers head? It is quite clear that there are circumstances where words are ambiguous in their meanings, such a with veiled threats, or with sarcasm. But such swearing is frequently simply the utterance of prophane or violent (or both) phrases or words. They are unlinked otherwise to the surrounding circumstances and are frequently simple one or two words utterances. They lack grammar and rarely exceed phrase length (obviously this does not include swearwords inserted into functional sentences). So when we hear these disconnected phrases, we know someone is swearing. But if they say Jiminy cricket, or fudge, or flying ferrets (one of my favourites - it always makes my students laugh), or any of those alternative exclamations, they are chosen to replace the offensive term which might have been inserted. How much easier would it have been for the speaker to simply swear? Very. But the speaker took the care to insert a seeminlgy non-offensive term - and some people still complain? What do you object to: the word or their thoughts? The word is not a swear word so it must be the thought. How can you object to something you can't see, and have no evidence of, except the use of an innocuous and innofensive word which you suspect might be being used in place of something more offensive? Isn't that what you are asking people to do - use other words instead of foul language?  What would please you? Should they cut out their tongues because they once had the temerity to swear?  OK, so I'm getting aerigated. But you can see where I am coming from, can't you? Why can't we just live and let live? Lets not be the thought police. Becci Last edited on 25 Sep 2007 06:48 pm by Ohm |
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rainbeaux78 New Member
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I'm with you Becci. I purposely choose to use much milder words and phrases in my everyday language because I don't want to use the nasty fouler terms more common these days. I don't use them with the intention that they mean the same thing as the actual foul term would. I use them as what they are. And, I do have to say, I will be pilfering the term "flying ferrets". I hope you don't mind. |
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Ohm Senior Member
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Flying ferrets! What a compliment! Use away. I never got around to copyrighting it! |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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Peter wrote: It always catches my attention when I see someone that really looks good, or someone that is working really hard to look better, and I hear really foul language flowing freely from their lips. Don't they ever think about how unattractive it makes them look? And how do you feel about my original topic? |
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Ohm Senior Member
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Ooh, sorry for going off topic, Peter, but this forum thing and the discussions it contains are just like real conversations. Like real conversations they flow and evolve. And the focus can change from statement to statement. Its all part of the rich tapestry you have created on this site. My comments refer back to comments made earlier in the thread, but if you like you can erase anything which you feel has gone off topic. Heck, you don't need my permission to do that (its your site), but I would not be offended if you wanted to do that. Becci |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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What? I didn't post that because I was complaining that the discussion went off-topic. I just wanted to know how you felt about it. Peter |
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Ohm Senior Member
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Oh, ok, sorry. I will shut up then, and let someone else air their views on this one, because I have already made my views quite plain in various and far too lengthy posts on this one! Oh, Ok, if you insist! Broadly, I think we should live and let live - don't - let the way people speak blind you to the wisdom (or otherwise) of what they are saying - use of swear words doesn't make the speaker an idiot, a wise man or a guru - I prefer not to swear in front of my tiny terrorists (kids) but admit that swearing, inthe right context canbe funny or can save time and effort of emphasis. Cussing is a choice which may be chosen for any one or more of a number of reasons. I prefer to use other terms, but sometimes I choose to swear - and I sometimes don't. Sometimes I find it very tiring teasing the sense out of a series of sentences littered with a detritus of swearwords. I have to admit i find some sexual swearwords offensive and there are some words which will never cross my lips ( some of which are not, probably, termed swear words but which i would find offensive from myself or others). I don't think swearing makes onemore atractive, but I don't think it renders them less attractive - although swearing can sometimes function to obscure the functionality and/or the good sense in what someone says. |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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I appreciate your opinion, but really have trouble seeing how anyone can have your point of view. I picture a woman looking her very best. Perhaps at her wedding! Months or years of planning. Dressed to perfection; hair and makeup done to perfection. A beautiful, warm smile on her face, posing for her wedding pictures. Then some little thing goes wrong and she shouts the F word. Ruins the beautiful princess scene for me! If I were the groom, I'd be having second thoughts. Peter |
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Trixie.in.Dixie New Member
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Thank goodness that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and to each his own, eh? |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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Yep! I was also just thinking that the woman could be very overweight and that wouldn't bother me. But swearing during her wedding?!? Well, I wouldn't have been invited to her wedding anyway, so it doesn't matter much. Haha, Peter |
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clarinetgurl Distinguished Member
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Sorry to be the thought police which Becci obviously finds so offensive, but... When there are people around me at school, and every noun they say has the word "effin" in front of it: "So at the effin pool me and tasha got hotdogs and they were like effin cold and we were like what the eff is this all about?" I'm sorry...well no I'm not...but I do not think that is any nicer than saying the actual word. It isn't. I don't want to hear the Lord's name taken in vain. It makes me angry. And hearing "gosh" "gee" or "golly"...does not sound any better to me. So excuse me for being the thought police, but if everyone else has the right to free speech, then I think I have the right to pitch a fit when it offends me. CG Last edited on 25 Sep 2007 10:37 pm by clarinetgurl |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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clarinetgurl, You aren't being the "police" as long as you aren't telling others what to do. Peter |
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Ohm Senior Member
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Clarinetgirl, my thought was that it is when peole are offended when peole replace a swearword with a non offensive word and people are still offended at WHAT THEY MIGHT BE THINKING that we become the thought police. To be offended at a non-cussword because they are using it to replace an offensive term as cited by Peter here on 20 April 2007:
The man was using non-offensive terms, and yet was still condemned. Not fair, methinks - but each to their own. Having read back, I wonder if perhaps I am deliberately over-looking a certain aspect of the question: that of attractiveness? Attraction has long been regarded as perhaps the most primary function of the female of our species. I regret this and absolutely refuse to allow this to be so for myself. Allow me to consider for a second or two a hypothetical scenario: You are a victim of a hit and run accident and are badly injured. Two surgeons offer their services. One is less accomplished than the other,but is terrifically attractive - the other is celebrated for his skill but is ugly. Which wouldyou choose? I wonder. So if attractiveness can be immaterial in that situation, why should we allow such a factor to influence so much more of our lives? On an evolutionary basis, attractiveness does have an influence over which we,as individuals have no control (until we recognise its influence). Once we are aware of this influence we can take steps to counteract such influence, such as marking academic work "blind", so that attractiveness and prior acquaintance cannot influence the situation. Yes to be attractive does have its advantages. Attractive children do receive more attention from their teachers. An attractive person is more likely to be received in a positive way by strangers. Evenpurses with an attractive photo (purportedly of the owner) are more likely to be returned. But we can all over-ride our natural instincts to turn away from that which is not "attractive" and in so doing we can sometimes find diamonds buried in a dung heap. I've gone right off the point, so to bring us back to the original arena, no, I don't think swearing and foul language NECSSARILY render someone less attractive (but I can absolutely see how others might). The next logical step for me is to see if level of attractiveness is really the most important thing about any person and then perhaps to decide what is more important, what a person is saying or how they choose to say it? I do hope I have not offended anybody with my opinion. Becci Last edited on 26 Sep 2007 09:04 am by Ohm |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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Don't mind me, I just love a good debate. But a preacher more than anyone should know the importance of the spirit behind an act. Therefore to me if he said Jimney Cricket and used "Jimney Cricket" to mean Jesus Christ, then he was in deed taking the name of the Lord in vain. I understand you to be saying that it's me turning Jimney Cricket into Jesus Christ. Yes! Now try and get me to believe the person saying Jimney Cricket wasn't thinking Jesus Christ! One more thing. I didn't condemn anyone. But I certainly meant to laugh at them. Peter |
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Ohm Senior Member
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But Peter, what qualifies you to pass judgements on thoughts, and specifically on the thoughts behind his utterances? You may suspect, but you cannot be sure - and he has done all he can do by substituting a non-offensive term for the offensive term he might have chosen. Is that not enough? If not, then you are passing judgements based on your opinon of thoughts he may or may not be having. Based on this kind of judgement, the moment somebody employs any kind of exclamation they may be thinking a swear word or using foul language intheir head and therefore should be what? Condemned? It would make for a very dull language if we were to excise all exclamations in case of offending people with our thoughts. You have every right to beleive that the person was thinking profane thoughts, but is it right to judge them on that? You cannot be sure you are right, and if you are so convinced of your beliefs, what exclamation could that man have used which would have not raised your suspicion that he was swearing in his head? And (stay with me here - this is the home strait) had he used this unspecified term, is it not entirely possible that you might be wrong and he might still be swearing in his head even when using this term which does not arouse your suspicions? Well within living memory, inthe first half of the last century (1939-1945) the world went to war against a man (and his supporters) who sought to control how the rest of us think, worship and live, and I beleive that without a doubt the most influential part of what we, the allies, were fighting for was the freedom to think (although I concede there are other valid opinions on this). Lets not walk backwards. I also love debate! Becci |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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Becci, I think you are becoming the "thought police." Please stop using the word condemn in talking about what I am thinking. When I judged the preacher with the radio show I did not call up and condemn him on the air. I simply judged him, in my mind, to be ridiculous. I could be wrong that he didn't mean the S word when he said "doggie pooh," but I think it's highly unlikely. I think our biggest difference is that I don't consider judgment to be a dirty word! We judge people all the time, and it's what makes the world a better place. It helps us to rid the world of the Hitlers and thought police. I don't think that making judgments of others is a bad thing at all. It's how I chose my wife and friends. Your entire argument is based on your judgment of what is right and wrong! Oh, this is fun. Peter |
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rainbeaux78 New Member
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Flying Ferrets! You guys are really going at it. I think this may be a situation where you will each have to agree to disagree. It seems to me that each of you is viewing the other's opinion as mutually exclusive. As in, if he thinks this, then he can't possibly think THAT, and vice versa. I can definitely see both of your points, but Peter, I don't necessarily agree with your discussion of the radio preacher saying Jiminy Cricket. If a person can't use a phrase to express consternation without someone else equating it to another phrase commonly using foul language, then how can they possibly express what they are feeling and thinking? While I do see the "JC" equivelant there, that doesn't mean this is what this man was intending. I say, "Poop!" a lot. That does not mean that I intend for people to hear the S word. I intend for them to hear the exact word I say. I don't think the S word in my head, so why would I want people to assume that's what I mean? I think that's an unfair judgement. While I'm sure some people probably DO use substitute words and intend others to get the gist of their story to mean the actual foul word or phrase, I don't think you can reasonably say that everyone does. I know I don't. I have to admit that after about the first two responses from each of you, I started skimming because what you each had to say was so polarized, it really didn't interest me anymore, so forgive me if I missed something. I did note, however, that Becci said she has no problem with people who use foul language and doesn't see it as a factor in whether they are attractive or not, but she can "definitely understand someone who would." (or something to that effect) Give her a little break, will ya? She's only being honest. While she may be using the word condemn in her responses, it seems to me that you are actually condemning, not just talking about it. Tisk, tisk... |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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Tisk, tisk! (That doesn't mean something foul, does it?) Haha, Peter |
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Ohm Senior Member
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Peter, shall we agree to disagree? I can absolutely see your side - I just don't agree with it! No doubt you feel something similar regarding my opinion! You ahve every right to your opinion! Ok? No hard feelings? And I apologise for using the word "condemn" - it was not meant to be condemnatory! Becci |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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Agree to disagree? What? I suppose that's something two people do when they see no end to their bickering, but it seems counter-productive to the spirit of a forum. So no, I will not agree to disagree. I will just keep sharing my thoughts! I thought more about this while I was gardening this morning and I decided that I must have a very simple mind. Many good arguments have been made defending the use of foul language. But when the bride shouts the F word in front of her wedding party on what is presumably one of the most important days of her life, I believe it distracts from her beauty. Period. And many good arguments have been made that it's wrong to judge what others mean when they use words like Jimney Cricket and Doggie Pooh. And especially that it's wrong for me to assume that they are using them in place of Jesus Christ and the S word. But when Jimney Cricket and Doggie Pooh are used in sentences just as Jesus Christ and the S word would be -- and with the same voice inflections -- my simple mind will think of the other words every time. Oh, I suppose if I heard this preacher using these words every Sunday I might eventually just accept them at face value. But then it's not likely I would attend a church where the preacher regularly stood at the pulpit and talked about Doggie Pooh! From my simple mind, Peter |
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Ohm Senior Member
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OK. I think the poor man has done all he can by replacing the offensive word, but I suppose the bottom line is that Jiminy Cricket and Doggie dooh are just as offensive to you in some situations and you object(?) to them? That's your right. I don't. That's OK too. And on the "attractiveness" thing - well beauty is inthe eye of the beholder, ancient wisdom tells us - and wouldn't it be a sad world if we all thought there was only one type of "beauty " and hos unlucky for those of us who have been born without it! I guess I can't really judge on that particular point - I don't regard physical attractiveness as an asset of mine (you see, I'm not just an argumentative old baggage, I'm ugly too!) and I try to avoid the natural tendency to favour beautiful things and substitute a pursuit of the functional. B |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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Ohm wrote: I think the poor man has done all he can by replacing the offensive word. Ah! Here we disagree! I think in spirit he IS saying Jesus Christ, he is just playing a silly game by replacing those words with different but obviously similar-sounding words. The words Jimney Cricket were chosen because they sound like Jesus Christ! If he were doing "all he can" he would have said something entirely different. There are lots of words to choose from. And yes, it is wonderful to think that we can all have our own opinions about beauty. I'm happy for anyone that finds a bride swearing to be pretty! LOL, Peter |
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Ohm Senior Member
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Like I said, I just don't find being "pretty" to be that important. But yeah, I can see where you are coming from - which doesn't mean that you have won! But maybe you can have a point to you on that point! Sometimes it becomes a habit - almost automaticity - to expectorate given sounds. If you repeat a word or sound over and over again, it loses it's apparent meaning and begins to be just a collection of sounds (bannister always does it for me - try repeating it aloud over and over about 45 times and see what I mean - give it a try - see what I mean?). I wonder if this could sometimes account for persistance of habitual swearing and prophanity in some people who one would expect to have kicked the habit? Or perhaps he was trying to get people who did use prophane language (perhaps young lost sheep) to identify with him. Or maybe he was still foul mouthed in his private life and just managed to replace the prophanity with like-so9unding alternatives for public display. Who knows? I certainly don't. Just BTW, my Grandma, aged 103, loved to say "it's bleak and cold" because it almost sounds as if she is saying "it's bl**ding cold" (is that fould language in the US? It is here) - and her eyes dance with fun. Wicked old Granny! The foul language was in the ears of the beholder, not in her mouth or mind, but she was a naughty old thing! B |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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I'm not trying to "win," but if you can find a bride who doesn't care if she looks pretty on her wedding day I'll give you the prize! (Or perhaps things are very different in the UK? Haha.) Your grandma sounds fun! Peter P.S. I was planning on visiting the UK summer 2008, but with the exchange rate it looks like it would be too costly. Plus I don't want to hear all those swearing British brides! |
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Ohm Senior Member
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She was a wicked old bat, but I think that might be where I get it from. OK, on your terms I win (hehe) because I was a bride and I didn't give a flying ferret what I looked like or what people thought - mind you I didn't swear on my wedding day either as far as I know. I was just deliriously happy to be marrying my darling husband! It was a very small do - we didn't have much cash to splash and it was all arranged at relatively short notice. We had a lot of people criticising us (because ours is both an inter-faith and inter-racial marriage) but we were deliriously happy to call each other husband and wife - and we still are Altogether now............aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!. Last edited on 27 Sep 2007 08:07 pm by Ohm |
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Trixie.in.Dixie New Member
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To quote myself from previously, "to each his own" - because beauty or "attractiveness" means different things to different people - I am attracted to my partner based on qualities that are important to me - I don't know if others think he is "attractive" or not, because in my mind he is perfect, so I don't care. However, I may look at other people and see flaws based on my personal biases - qualities that I personally do not find attractive, physical or otherwise. So, if I have a problem with the use of what I think is profanity in an inappropriate setting, then that will shade my perceptions of other people. My point is that the use of profanity and whether or not it is perceived as "offensive" and therefore "unattractive" completely depends on the folks who are hearing and deciding for themselves. What I think is okay may not be the same for the next guy. As for what people are saying and what they mean, don't try to overanalyze it. Most people simply use "sound-alike" words because they aren't the real thing and maybe they are wishing they could use a stronger, less PC word or phrase, and then again, maybe they aren't. Maybe they are just used to certain alternate words and have never considered that anyone might think that they meant something more offensive. But we can't know unless we ask the speaker, so let's not jump to conclusions. I say "rats!" a lot, and it has never ever been a substitute for any other word. It's just a word that sounds funny, and that's pretty much why I use it. I said this before, but I'll mention it again. Having grown up the way I did, with the old-fashioned southern ways of thinking, I learned from my mother and grandmother that the way you present yourself says a lot about your upbringing and self-respect. You don't have to be pretty or rich or wear expensive clothes, but you should always go out into the world looking (and sounding) like you have respect for yourself. To me that includes the way you speak, and if you are generally loud, use bad grammar, curse in front of just anybody, or scream at your kids in the store aisles, I will definitely find that unattractive. The difference is that what you do in public, say, at your place of employment, may be very different from the way you are in your private life, so knowing how to conduct yourself in a way that is appropriate to the situation is key to me. |
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Peter Founder of this forum
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Well said Trixie! A true Southern Bell. Except... uh oh... you used the term PC! I'm really enjoying this discussion and the one I started about suing McDonald's. As soon as I have time -- probably next week -- I'm going to tell everyone how awful it is to use the term PC. That's oughta be fun! (Let's not start that discussing in this thread.) Till then, Peter |
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Ohm Senior Member
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Yes, very well said Trixie. Bravo! |
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Trixie.in.Dixie New Member
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Peter wrote: Well said Trixie! A true Southern Bell. Hey, Darlin' (said with a twang), that's "belle".... Southern Bell was the name of the phone company before it became the generic sounding "Bellsouth". Bleah. As some might say "Bless yer heart".... |
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BlackDiamond New Member
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i come from a family that is very into vulgar language. i heard it alot at the public schools. but now i attend a private christian school and it is so free of pretty much all the bad language. truthfully, i have cursed quite a bit lately in the past 2 or 3 weeks. i dont know my coach made me more angry then i think ive ever been and it started. but yesterday i read this topic and what everybody had to say. wow i really have never looked at the fact that it can really make you look less attractive to people. ive gotten better i think i said one maybe two bad words in the past day. because i accidently cut myself but yeah. usually that isnt even a good excuse to curse. thanks guys i really appreciate this. it helped me realize that i was doing erm. speaking wrong. |
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1seekspie Distinguished Member 
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Interesting point, Peter. I try like crazy to get my hair, body, face, ect looking perfect yet I curse at least 20 times a day...I'm talking F-bombs, ect. I know it's like a really nasty habbit to get into...and I kind of want to break it but I find it really difficult! Then again, the way I look at it, is cursing really so bad? I mean if you want to be polite and appealing, constant cursing will do nothing but hurt you. Think, however, about big issues in the world today. Most people have issues with sex, violence, and cursing on television, video games, in real life, ect! But what's worse? Dropping the F-bomb or beating the daylights out of some one? I can't believe that there are people who get more offended by foul language than violence. While cursing should be controlled, violence is much, much worse. I think that people should get rid of that first, before taking out all our favorite curses! I hope I didn't get too off topic, I know this issue is: Does constant cursing make you less attractive? I think so yes. I mean not in the literal sense...like if you drop a few curse words, you won't suddenly break out in moles or gain 500 pounds, will you? Of course not! I just think that there are worse things than cursing out there and before trying to focus on that, we need to rid constant violence and sex from humanity. |
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BlackDiamond New Member
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I somewhat disagree with you 1seekspie. Yes there is a lot of violence and sex and wutnot. But those things may be a little harder to control then what we may see with the naked eye. If we want to change the things we dont like start with the "little" things that aggravate it. Sometimes. well probably alot of the time foul language just makes violence worse in some cases. Try getting rid of all the cursing and wutnot to start out with. I know we won't ever get all of it but its a start especially if you want to try and get rid of all the other bad stuff. Start small and you can make a difference here. I personally feel that when there isnt a buncha cursing and such that the moment in time feels nicer ina sense. I feel nicer when i dont curse. happiness leads to less violence yadda yadda yadda. you get what i mean right?? This is just my opinion on it though. =D |
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