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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 15 Jan 2012 06:08 pm |
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Both of these meals contain the same amount of calories. The problem is that the one on the bottom you have to make yourself. Hedonistic glutton want what they want when they want it.
For the carb phobics reading this I have one word for you.
IDIOTS!
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Tankgirl
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 07:33 am |
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Hey JS,
Would you mind defining carb phobic?
There's carbs like carrots, squash, sweet potatoes, fruit, nuts and seeds, -Yes please, nothing like an apple after a good ride, or better yet during with some nice scenery.
There's grains, which some of us don't digest well, especially wheat. If you can digest them like Nir, and they don't make you hungry, more power to you- you can have my share 
And then there's what I call "carbage" ( as in garbage carbs) refined grains and sugar with no nutrition other than what gets sprayed on to them, and a ton of calories per volume. These are the carbs I'm afraid of, and those suckers are everywhere! If you look at the first plate the carbage would be the bun (refined white bread) the fries (trans fat), the ketchup ( more sugar ounce per ounce than ice cream) and the cola, meaning that most of it's a total waste of calories.
By the way what's the entr?â?®e in the second plate?
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 04:36 pm |
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| (side point regarding wheat and grains: wheat has not been my grain of choice for a while. #1 is air-popped popcorn which looks impressively large for a given number of calories. #2 is oats (not too much though). leaving wheat at #3 (in the form of wheat flakes - an ingredient in my Muesli). And then I occasionally will indulge in junk when out - for example I had a white flour tortilla wrap when out on Friday night.
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Tankgirl
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: 17 Jan 2012 04:29 am |
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Thanks, Nir, this is an argument I don't think him and I will ever resolve. My stomach simply doesn't like grains, and after avoiding them for a long time I find them tasteless. So I'd rather keep swapping them out for vegetables, like zucchini instead of pasta and cauliflower instead of rice. Since they're more nutritious and lower in calories, I don't see what the big deal is- I thought more vegetables was a good thing? 
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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 18 Jan 2012 02:35 am |
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There are 4 calories per gram in carbs and protein and 9 for fat.
Then we have the Krebs Cycle ie Fat burns in the flame of carbohydrate.
Then we have the fact that brain cells can only function on glucose and LC diets do not provide enough glucose.
There are a lot more grains than wheat and there are many varieties of wheat.
There maybe digestive enzymes that can help people digest wheat.
Carb phobia is the unproven unscientific notion that carbohydrates are the reason that Americans are fat. The healthiest people on earth are the rural Chinese and they get 70% of their calories from plant bases carbohydrates.
Atkins died form a heart attack and he was obese when he died. Agatston is chubby and on statin drugs and Barry Sears is chubby.
Low Carb has been a massive failure.
http://www.atkinsexposed.org/
The Chair of the American Medical Association's Council on Food and Nutrition testified before the Senate Subcommittee as to why the AMA felt they had to formally publish an official condemnation of the Atkins Diet: "A careful scientific appraisal was carried out by several council and staff members, aided by outside consultants. It became apparent that the [Atkins] diet as recommended poses a serious threat to health."[5]
The warnings from medical authorities continue to this day. "People need to wake up to the reality," former U.S. Surgeon General C. Everett Koop writes, that the Atkins Diet is "unhealthy and can be dangerous."[6]
The world's largest organization of food and nutrition professionals,[7] calls the Atkins Diet "a nightmare of a diet."[8] The official spokesperson of the American Dietetic Association elaborated: "The Atkins Diet and its ilk--any eating regimen that encourages gorging on bacon, cream and butter while shunning apples, all in the name of weight loss--are a dietitian's nightmare."[9] The ADA has been warning Americans about the potential hazards of the Atkins Diet for almost 30 years now.[10] Atkins dismissed such criticism as "dietician talk".[11] "My English sheepdog," Atkins once said, "will figure out nutrition before the dieticians do."[12]
The problem for Atkins (and his sheepdog), though, is that the National Academy of Sciences, the most prestigious scientific body in the United States, agrees with the AMA and the ADA in opposing the Atkins Diet.[13] So does the American Cancer Society;[14] and the American Heart Association;[15] and the Cleveland Clinic;[16] and Johns Hopkins;[17] and the American Kidney Fund;[18] and the American College of Sports Medicine;[19] and the National Institutes of Health.[20]
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Tankgirl
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: 18 Jan 2012 03:58 am |
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Here we go again. Sorry all aboput bieng redundant, but I'm going to try to get this all in one place.
JS, if a glutton could go from a gluttonous appatite to a normal appetite, just by avoiding certain foods, why would you be against this? Less gluttons walking around without WLS.
This is what I get if I avoid grains (mainly wheat and rice, corn doesn't seem problematic, and I'll probbably bring it back in in post-goal)
1. Manageable sinus allergies. I've gone from 20+ allergy headaches a year that left me throwing up to the point of dry heaves ( which made the pain even worse), and hiding out in a dark room, to having a few a year that I can get rid of with a couple excedrin and go on with my day. If that was the only benefit I would have done this a long time ago
2.Appetite Control- Last time I mentioned this someone else pointed out it had the same effect on them. I used to go on binges of sweets, bread, that kind of stuff, when I didn't like the the taste that much and hated myself for it. Getting off Sugar and grains gives me a normal appetite, which feels like I'm no longer chained to that way of eating. I won't say I didn't have times where I ate for emotional reasons but without the change in appetire, tackling it wouldn't have even be possible.
For the record, I'm not on Atkins anymore. It allowed for too much processed junk, and I wanted this to not just be about weight loss but about the best health possible. I know you'll rip on paleo because you think meat is glutton food,but It works for me. It's not even a low carb diet, it just gets its carbohydrates from fruits, nuts, and vegetables.
And to be fair the coventional low fat diet of the 80's wasn't that different from the low carb diet of the 90's : Lots of marketed products that were low in the macronutrient that was considered bad, but made up for with a truckload of other wothless ingredients that still made them garbage. This of course does not include ETL Nir, but even Ornish noticed problems in his patients when the low fat cofee cake came on the scene.
Bottom Line. Garbage food is garbage food whatever health claims it makes. People get fat because they eat too many empty calories without any nutrients, and live the typical modern life of little to no activity, lots of sitting, stress, and very little sleep.
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 18 Jan 2012 04:13 am |
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| (I do sometimes wonder whether the two of you are trying to mis-understand each other - and if so, for what purpose)
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Tankgirl
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Jul 2011 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: 18 Jan 2012 04:46 am |
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I'd really love to understand him Nir, I'll ask questions but he doesn't answer them.
Yes I defend low carb because for me it was life changing stuff. Not only did it help me lose 100 poinds, it actually made me more strict about what I eat.I respect the discipline you have in ETL as a lifetime approach, but I know I'd never make it. I can't moderate simple starches in my diet any more than Ozzy Osborne can moderate alcohol.
In the end if I came to see myself as a terrible person because I am fat,I'm afraid of looking at other people with weight problems the same way. I work with a lot of morbidly obese people. They're friendly, supportive and good friends. It really saddens me to see them kill themselves right in front of me. My best friend not only is obese but diabetic too, and I know the world would not be as good of a place without her in it.
We both play to what's left of the lurkers a bit. I like picking his brain sometimes because I think he says things out loud that a lot of people don't. I'm hoping I'll eventually coax a few more answers out of himLast edited on 18 Jan 2012 04:46 am by Tankgirl
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 18 Jan 2012 09:39 am |
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I follow ETL - but I do not necessarily follow it perfectly. My BMI is a shade over 20.0, I am muscular and healthy - so I can afford to deviate from time to time. Several times a week, in fact. I'm in hospital today and if after my operation I am offered a cookie I may accept. Food at home is 99.9% ETL.
Here is a resource about perfectionism that might be fun to review http://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/resources/infopax.cfm?Info_ID=52
If I needed to follow ETL to reverse heart disease, diabetes, auto-immune conditions then I would follow it perfectly because it would be "my medicine"Last edited on 18 Jan 2012 09:41 am by Nir
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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 18 Jan 2012 04:45 pm |
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Tankgirl wrote:
Here we go again. Sorry all aboput bieng redundant, but I'm going to try to get this all in one place.
JS, if a glutton could go from a gluttonous appatite to a normal appetite, just by avoiding certain foods, why would you be against this? Less gluttons walking around without WLS.
This is what I get if I avoid grains (mainly wheat and rice, corn doesn't seem problematic, and I'll probbably bring it back in in post-goal)
1. Manageable sinus allergies. I've gone from 20+ allergy headaches a year that left me throwing up to the point of dry heaves ( which made the pain even worse), and hiding out in a dark room, to having a few a year that I can get rid of with a couple excedrin and go on with my day. If that was the only benefit I would have done this a long time ago
2.Appetite Control- Last time I mentioned this someone else pointed out it had the same effect on them. I used to go on binges of sweets, bread, that kind of stuff, when I didn't like the the taste that much and hated myself for it. Getting off Sugar and grains gives me a normal appetite, which feels like I'm no longer chained to that way of eating. I won't say I didn't have times where I ate for emotional reasons but without the change in appetire, tackling it wouldn't have even be possible.
For the record, I'm not on Atkins anymore. It allowed for too much processed junk, and I wanted this to not just be about weight loss but about the best health possible. I know you'll rip on paleo because you think meat is glutton food,but It works for me. It's not even a low carb diet, it just gets its carbohydrates from fruits, nuts, and vegetables.
And to be fair the coventional low fat diet of the 80's wasn't that different from the low carb diet of the 90's : Lots of marketed products that were low in the macronutrient that was considered bad, but made up for with a truckload of other wothless ingredients that still made them garbage. This of course does not include ETL Nir, but even Ornish noticed problems in his patients when the low fat cofee cake came on the scene.
Bottom Line. Garbage food is garbage food whatever health claims it makes. People get fat because they eat too many empty calories without any nutrients, and live the typical modern life of little to no activity, lots of sitting, stress, and very little sleep.
Are you at proper BMI yet?
This is a matter of amounts and % calories. They majority of calories need to come from health carbohydrates...PERIOD!
Caloric poisoning is the problem and the problem with high fat diets is fat contains 9 calories per gram. Fat does not diminish appetite but slow carbs and protein does.
The photo I posted illustrates this.
Here is what the national research counsel says about fat requirements.http://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpinews/newsitem.aspx?RecordID=10490
Here is what the FDA says and they are generally full of #%@&!.
The FDA's RDI for fats is 65 g or 30 percent of your daily calorie intake. These should be unsaturated fats, such as olive oil and fats such as nuts and seeds. Minimize your consumption of saturated fats such as butter, margarine, lard and other fats that are solid at room temperature.
Read more: livestrong.com/article/233749-daily-requirements-for-sodium-fiber-fat-iron-calcium/#ixzz1jqQWrWgp
The most authoritative and extensive study on human nutrition is the China Study. Rural Chinese get 70% of their calories from plant based carbs. They don't get sick or fat and they live a long time.
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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 18 Jan 2012 04:57 pm |
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Tankgirl wrote:
I'd really love to understand him Nir, I'll ask questions but he doesn't answer them.
Yes I defend low carb because for me it was life changing stuff. Not only did it help me lose 100 poinds, it actually made me more strict about what I eat.I respect the discipline you have in ETL as a lifetime approach, but I know I'd never make it. I can't moderate simple starches in my diet any more than Ozzy Osborne can moderate alcohol.
In the end if I came to see myself as a terrible person because I am fat,I'm afraid of looking at other people with weight problems the same way. I work with a lot of morbidly obese people. They're friendly, supportive and good friends. It really saddens me to see them kill themselves right in front of me. My best friend not only is obese but diabetic too, and I know the world would not be as good of a place without her in it.
We both play to what's left of the lurkers a bit. I like picking his brain sometimes because I think he says things out loud that a lot of people don't. I'm hoping I'll eventually coax a few more answers out of him
Since you can't seem to understand basic scientific reality and since you are still fat something is not right with you.
One thing Low Carb does is cause ketogenic psychosis. If you don't believe me, click these links.
http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/6/1/10
http://fdlpsychiatry.com/media/mania.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treatment_of_bipolar_disorder
http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/archive/index.php?t-71.html
What happens when you are in Ketosis for a long time like on the Atkins DIEt is you sustain permanent brain injury. This has been know for years.
If you want gallbladder disease do low carb.
This "it works for me #%@&!" is dangerous. I only employ safe methods that are based in science. Low Carb is neither safe of scientific. What about that don't you understand?
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 18 Jan 2012 08:22 pm |
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JSABD, a diet can have significant carb content without being dominated by grains. This was and continues to be the point of contention.
Here are some significant sources of carbs:
- beans
- fruit
- starchy vegetables (like corn, butternut squash, sweet potatos)
You will find all of these to be high in carbs and lower in fats and protein.
Summary: If you aiming for a calorie deficit, there is no particular need to make a diet grain-heavy.
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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 18 Jan 2012 08:59 pm |
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Nir wrote:
JSABD, a diet can have significant carb content without being dominated by grains. This was and continues to be the point of contention.
Here are some significant sources of carbs:
- beans
- fruit
- starchy vegetables (like corn, butternut squash, sweet potatos)
You will find all of these to be high in carbs and lower in fats and protein.
Summary: If you aiming for a calorie deficit, there is no particular need to make a diet grain-heavy.
I agree. Legumes and hard squashes are better than many grains. Sweet potatoes and yams are outstanding foods.
Grains like rye, barley and wild rice are also very good. Rice is a staple for many countries. The Chinese eat a lot of rice and they are very lean and healthy.
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