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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 16 Sep 2011 09:42 am |
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JSABD, you were too "busy" to address this before, perhaps you're free now.
1) where does your recommendation of 0.5g protein per lb of body weight come from?
2) in his book "Eat To Live", Dr Fuhrman states that someone who gets enough calories to maintain their body weight will get enough protein from his diet
3) he states that his diet (if properly followed) will yield 12-16% of calories from protein, or between 30 to 40 grams per 1000 calories consumed.
(yes this factors in green vegetables at 50% of calories from protein and beans at 30% of calories from protein against other foods also included in the recommended diet)
4) for someone like me (male AND active AND slim) I get to eat lots of calories and as a result I do indeed (probably - I no longer track it exactly) eat about 0.5 gram per lb of body weight.
5) however, for someone who is OBESE and eating at a caloric-deficit (let's say they are eating at their unadjusted RMR) and to further make things akward let's also stipulate FEMALE, their caloric intake is such that following a Fuhrman-type diet (12-16% of calories from protein) only gives 0.25g protein per lb.
6) therefore some protein 'supplementation' (be it soy, egg whites, low-fat dairy, lean fish/meat) is required to push overall protein intake to approx 25% of calories in order to achieve 0.5g protein/lb for such an individual.
Instead of a one-word answer, maybe you'd like to disect this meaningfully.
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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 17 Sep 2011 01:42 am |
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Nir wrote: JSABD, you were too "busy" to address this before, perhaps you're free now.
1) where does your recommendation of 0.5g protein per lb of body weight come from?
Joe Weider aka the master blaster and trainer of champion. For body building he recommends 2 grams or more.
2) in his book "Eat To Live", Dr Fuhrman states that someone who gets enough calories to maintain their body weight will get enough protein from his diet
Actually it is slightly less than .5 grams. Fuhrman is wrong. It is possible to eat the right amount of calories and not get enough protein.
3) he states that his diet (if properly followed) will yield 12-16% of calories from protein, or between 30 to 40 grams per 1000 calories consumed.
That sounds reasonable.
(yes this factors in green vegetables at 50% of calories from protein and beans at 30% of calories from protein against other foods also included in the recommended diet)
Protein is a combination of amino acids. Full spectrum protein is found in whey, meat fish and eggs.
4) for someone like me (male AND active AND slim) I get to eat lots of calories and as a result I do indeed (probably - I no longer track it exactly) eat about 0.5 gram per lb of body weight.
Excessive protein is damaging to the kidneys. The reason protein dulls appetite is because when we eat it CKK hormone is released. That makes us a bit queasy. The reason that happen is so that we won't eat too much. Also, according to Weider most protein remains undigested if you eat above 30 grams per meal. BUT.. as the digestive system adapts more gets digested.
This is just my theory but I think the reason Fatkins works during the induction phase is that the lemming are not digesting the fat and protein.
5) however, for someone who is OBESE and eating at a caloric-deficit (let's say they are eating at their unadjusted RMR) and to further make things akward let's also stipulate FEMALE, their caloric intake is such that following a Fuhrman-type diet (12-16% of calories from protein) only gives 0.25g protein per lb.
The it is not enough. They will end up burning muscle. Also, because protein dull appetite and because fat people have bigger appetite I recommend at least .5 grams or more. I can eat 2 grams with no problem at my weight but a 300 pounder would probably have a very tough time doing that.
6) therefore some protein 'supplementation' (be it soy, egg whites, low-fat dairy, lean fish/meat) is required to push overall protein intake to approx 25% of calories in order to achieve 0.5g protein/lb for such an individual.
Instead of a one-word answer, maybe you'd like to disect this meaningfully.
It simple eat at least .5 grams per pound of body weight.
From Wiki
According to US & Canadian Dietary Reference Intake guidelines, women aged 19?óÔé¼ÔÇ£70 need to consume 46 grams of protein per day, while men aged 19?óÔé¼ÔÇ£70 need to consume 56 grams of protein per day to avoid a deficiency.[16] The American and Canadian guidelines recommend a daily protein dietary allowance, measured as intake per kilogram body weight, is 0.8 g/kg.[12] However, this recommendation is based on structural requirements, but disregards use of protein for energy metabolism.[12] This requirement is for a normal sedentary person.[14]
Several studies have concluded that active people and athletes may require elevated protein intake (compared to 0.8 g/kg) due to increase in muscle mass and sweat losses, as well as need for body repair and energy source.[12][13][14] Suggested amounts vary between 1.6 g/kg and 1.8 g/kg,[13] while a proposed maximum daily protein intake would be approximately 25% of energy requirements i.e. approximately 2 to 2.5 g/kg.[12] However, many questions still remain to be resolved.[13]
From me: During weight loss I want them eating more than the minimum amount. Tankgirl needs to eat a lot because with her cycling her muscles are doing a lot of work.
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Tankgirl
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: 17 Sep 2011 06:04 am |
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| It's not the biking so much anymore- that I'm pretty used to. It's the weight training that's doing it. Ever heard that joke" They'll feel THAT in the morning!"? Learned pretty quickly it's the truth.
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 17 Sep 2011 09:44 am |
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General agreement. I'll nit-pick a couple of points:
Fuhrman is wrong. It is possible to eat the right amount of calories and not get enough protein.
I said "from his diet". You are thinking of an all fruit / all oil / all refined grain diet. That is not his diet recommendation (and you know that).
Excessive protein is damaging to the kidneys.
Yes I agree about that, which is why it is puzzling that you cite
Joe Weider aka the master blaster and trainer of champion. For body building he recommends 2 grams or more.
Just to help you with the maths, 1kg = 2.2lb, so 2g/lb is 4.4g/kg
However this turns out not to be what he recommends. Here is a quote from http://www.creators.com/health/joe-weider/the-truth-about-egg-yolks.html
Obviously, extra protein is needed in the diet to help foster this repair. However, the amount isn't as much as some would have you believe. Even if you're an extremely avid trainer who gets to the gym five or six days per week, you don't need more than one gram of protein per pound of bodyweight ?óÔé¼ÔÇØ less if your exercise intensity is low to moderate.
Again with the maths, 1g/lb is 2.2g/kg.
Both Joe (quoted above) and Wikipedia (quote below) are reasonably balanced.
Suggested amounts vary between 1.6 g/kg and 1.8 g/kg,[13] while a proposed maximum daily protein intake would be approximately 25% of energy requirements i.e. approximately 2 to 2.5 g/kg
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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 18 Sep 2011 05:27 am |
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In his book Ultimate Body Building Weider recommended 2 grams. He also recommended branch chained amino acid pills.
Here is something I found:
The best method of calculating just how much protein is enough for a ?óÔé¼?£high protein diet?óÔé¼?£ is with the following formula.Lean Mass Weight (Kg) x 2.75 = Daily Protein Requirement
(By the way you simply divide pounds by 2.2 to get the equivalent in Kilograms. So 150 pounds is 68.18 Kg)
OK, you first need to know your total body weight and your body fat percentage. If you don?óÔé¼Ôäót know your body fat percentage I?óÔé¼Ôäóve included calculator in the sidebar to help you. Take a few measurements quickly and stick them into the boxes and hit ?óÔé¼?£calculate.?óÔé¼Ôäó
So now you know your body fat percentage. Multiply this percentage by your total body weight to determine the amount of fat you are carrying. Now simply subtract this from your total body weight to ascertain your lean mass weight.
Take this figure and multiply it 2.75 to give you your ideal protein intake per day in grams.
Example
A man weighs 150 pounds with 15% body fat.- 150 / 2.2 = 68.18 Kg
- 15% x 68.18 = 10.23 Kg
- 68.18 ?óÔé¼ÔÇ£ 10.23 = 57.95 Kg ?óÔé¼ÔÇ£ Lean body mass in Kg
- 57.95 x 2.75 = 159.36
So, therefore our 150 lb, 15% body fat man should be shooting for 159 grams of protein in his daily diet.
Then I found this.
So how much protein do athletes need? To figure out your needs, simply multiply your weight in pounds by one of the following:- Sedentary adult 0.4
- Active adult 0.4-0.6
- Growing athlete 0.6-0.9
- Adult building muscle mass 0.6-0.9
taken from Nancy Clark's Sports Nutrition Guidebook
For a 150 pound male triathlete I would recommend 0.6 for a total of 90 grams of protein per day. For a 115 pound female high school track runner I would recommend 0.7 for a total of 80.5 grams of protein per day.
It's easy to get your protein requirements because protein is found in most foods:- Meat, poultry and fish 7 grams per ounce *
- Beans, dried peas, lentils 7 grams per 1/2 cup cooked
- One large egg 7 grams
- Milk 8 grams per cup
- Bread 4 grams per slice
- Cereal 4 grams per 1/2 cup
- Vegetables 2 grams per 1/2 cup
I go with .5 for weight loss because that means a 300 pound person needs 150 grams. Fat people are not that healthy and .5 is not excessive. I also want them to maintain muscle and a high carb high protein diet will do that for them.
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 19 Sep 2011 05:08 am |
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Cool, that is less alarming to me.
Specifically, because he is recommending 2.75g/kg of lean body mass in the source you quoted above, it makes it more likely that his "2 gram" recommendation is the almost-equivalent "2g/kg of body weight" and using the 2.2 conversation that translates to 0.9g/lb. (and we note that he's specifically talking about body-building here). So all the figures are consistent with each other.
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Tankgirl
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: 19 Sep 2011 04:58 pm |
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I subscribe to the Calorie Restriction with Optimal Nutrition mailing list, and this just came, sorry about the length :
A low carbohydrate, high protein diet slows tumor growth and prevents cancer
initiation.
Ho VW, Leung K, Hsu A, Luk B, Lai J, Shen SY, Minchinton AI, Waterhouse D,
Bally MB, Lin W, Nelson BH, Sly LM, Krystal G.
Cancer Res. 2011 Jul 1;71(13):4484-93. Epub 2011 Jun 14.
PMID: 21673053
Abstract
Since cancer cells depend on glucose more than normal cells, we compared the
effects of low carbohydrate (CHO) diets to a Western diet on the growth rate
of tumors in mice. To avoid caloric restriction-induced effects, we designed
the low CHO diets isocaloric with the Western diet by increasing protein
rather than fat levels because of the reported tumor-promoting effects of
high fat and the immune-stimulating effects of high protein.
We found that both murine and human carcinomas grew slower in mice on diets
containing low amylose CHO and high protein compared with a Western diet
characterized by relatively high CHO and low protein. There was no weight
difference between the tumor-bearing mice on the low CHO or Western diets.
Additionally, the low CHO-fed mice exhibited lower blood glucose, insulin,
and lactate levels. Additive antitumor effects with the low CHO diets were
observed with the mTOR inhibitor CCI-779 and especially with the COX-2
inhibitor Celebrex, a potent anti-inflammatory drug. Strikingly, in a
genetically engineered mouse model of HER-2/neu-induced mammary cancer,
tumor penetrance in mice on a Western diet was nearly 50% by the age of 1
year whereas no tumors were detected in mice on the low CHO diet. This
difference was associated with weight gains in mice on the Western diet not
observed in mice on the low CHO diet. Moreover, whereas only 1 mouse on the
Western diet achieved a normal life span, due to cancer-associated deaths,
more than 50% of the mice on the low CHO diet reached or exceeded the normal
life span.
Taken together, our findings offer a compelling preclinical illustration of
the ability of a low CHO diet in not only restricting weight gain but also
cancer development and progression.
===
High protein intake associates with cardiovascular events but not with loss
of renal function.
Halbesma N, Bakker SJ, Jansen DF, Stolk RP, De Zeeuw D, De Jong PE,
Gansevoort RT; PREVEND Study Group.
J Am Soc Nephrol. 2009 Aug;20(8):1797-804. Epub 2009 May 14.
PMID: 19443643
Abstract
The long-term effects of higher dietary protein intake on cardiovascular and renal outcomes in the general population are not clear. We analyzed data from 8461 individuals who did not have renal disease and participated in two or three subsequent screenings (6.4-yr follow-up) in a prospective, community-based cohort study (Prevention of Renal and Vascular ENd-stage Disease [PREVEND]). We calculated daily protein intake from 24-h urinary urea excretion (Maroni formula) and used Cox proportional hazard models to analyze the associations between protein intake, cardiovascular events, and mortality. We used mixed-effects models to investigate the association between protein intake and change in renal function over time. The mean ?âÔÇÜ?é?? SD daily protein intake was 1.20 ?âÔÇÜ?é?? 0.27 g/kg. Protein intake was significantly associated with cardiovascular events during follow-up. The associations seemed U-shaped; compared with intermediate protein intake, individuals with either higher or lower protein intake had higher event rates. All-cause mortality and noncardiovascular mortality also were significantly associated with protein intake; individuals with low protein intake had the highest event rates. We found no association between baseline protein intake and rate of renal function decline during follow-up. In summary, in the general population, high protein intake does not promote accelerated decline of renal function but does associate with an increased risk for cardiovascular events.
As I remember, the rats in the China Study were fed Casein.I've wondered since if casein specifically is more carcinogenic than other proteins, and if isolated casein rather than dairy products are more risky. It definitely makes me want to watch the whey protein powder.
In my own experience, I work out and ride better on days where I've gone above even J S's recommendations, and it seems to help with the recovery the morning after. It's not easy to go up and down stairs to the laundry room when you're sore from squats!Last edited on 19 Sep 2011 05:00 pm by Tankgirl
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 19 Sep 2011 06:05 pm |
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If we're talking health and longevity (as opposed to just nitrogen balance or athletic performance or body composition) and thinking back to the days when I was also subscribing to those lists, the key issues of the day used to be...
1) protein raises IGF-1 levels (dairy more so), speculate increased risk of cancer
2) Methionine is an amino acid. It has been suggested that CR works because of Methionine restriction or that MR extends life even in the absence of CR (in some animals) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methionine#Methionine_restriction etc
It is a narrow and twisted path. You don't want to be protein deficient but you don't want too much. You want to look good so you want good body composition but not at the expense of your health. Personally I go for health above looks.
Not tracking my food makes it difficult to know exactly what my protein intake is. However it is about 30-35g per 1000 calories and between 2000 and 2500 calories so I guess between 60 and 88. If we said I was 128 that'll be 0.47-0.69g per pound.
In terms of what I actually eat, my aim is to alternate vegan days with days when I eat some meat-or-fish but with the aim of capping the animal product serving at 50-100 calories on those days. (so get most of my protein from vegan whole foods - vegetables beans seeds oats etc.)
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Tankgirl
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: 19 Sep 2011 06:44 pm |
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While my emphasis is on health/longevity, specifically on avoiding illnesses like diabetes and Alzheimer's , I also like to tweak my diet for the short term to anything that seems to help my performance and recovery, both in my workouts and my job. I've gone quite a bit from "live to eat" to "live AND eat to ride" 
Focusing on looks on my case would actually be counter-productive. I maimed myself with a knife, fork, and straw, and short of plastic surgery or miracles in the gym, the evidence will always be there.
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 19 Sep 2011 06:58 pm |
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A little while ago I almost chopped my finger off with the food processor but I don't think that's what you mean 
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Tankgirl
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: 19 Sep 2011 07:03 pm |
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| Ouch! Lol, with me it's the madoline slicer. There's a reason I always keep a fresh tube of super glue in the kitchen drawer.
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