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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 4 Sep 2011 05:24 am |
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Let's have a closer look at Dr Layman's most recent work
Abstract
Background. The purpose of this double-blind randomized clinical trial was to compare the relative effectiveness of a higher protein and conventional carbohydrate intake during weight loss on body composition and physical function in older women.
Methods. Thirty-one overweight or obese, postmenopausal women (mean ?é?? SD: age 65.2 ?é?? 4.6 years, body mass index 33.7 ?é?? 4.9 kg/m2) were prescribed a reduced calorie diet (1,400 kcal/day; 15%, 65%, 30% energy from protein, carbohydrate, and fat, respectively) and randomly assigned to 2 ?âÔÇö 25 g/day whey protein (PRO n = 15) or maltodextrin (CARB n = 16) supplementation for 6 months. Lean soft tissue (LST) via dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry; thigh muscle, subcutaneous adipose tissue (SAT), and intermuscular adipose tissue with magnetic resonance imaging; knee strength with isokinetic dynamometry; balance and physical function with a battery of performance tests.
Results. PRO lost more weight than CARB (?ó?åÔÇÖ8.0% ?é?? 6.2%, ?ó?åÔÇÖ4.1% ?é?? 3.6%, p = .059; respectively). Changes in LST, %LST, and strength, balance, or physical performance measures did not differ between groups (all p > .05). Weight to leg LST ratio improved more in PRO versus CARB (?ó?åÔÇÖ4.6 ?é?? 3.6%, ?ó?åÔÇÖ1.8 ?é?? 2.6%, p = .03). PRO lost 4.2% more muscle (p = .01), 10.9% more SAT (p = .02), and 8.2% more intermuscular adipose tissue (p = .03) than CARB. Relative to thigh volume changes, PRO gained 5.8% more muscle (p = .049) and lost 3.8% greater SAT (p = .06) than CARB. Weight to leg LST ratio (r2 = .189, p = .02) and SAT (r2 = .163, p = .04) predicted improved up and go, relative muscle (r2 = .238, p = .01) and SAT (r2 = .165, p = .04) predicted improved transfer test, and %LST predicted improved balance (r2 = .179, p = .04).
Conclusions. A higher protein intake during caloric restriction maintains muscle relative to weight lost, which in turn enhances physical function in older women.
http://biomedgerontology.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2011/07/27/gerona.glr120.abstract (full text versions also available free)
In the above research the ladies were on a 1400 calorie diet plus two supplemental bars (approximately 200-250 extra calories). The low-protein diet provided 53 grams of protein. The high-protein diet provided 103 grams protein.
Mean BMI was 33.7, if we assume subjects were 5'5" that's about 202lb. The ladies were eating at about unadjusted RMR (which is reasonable).
low protein diet was 53/202 = 0.26 grams per 1lb
high protein diet was 103/202 = 0.51 grams per 1lb
NOTES
1) the low protein diet is below World Health Recommendation is 0.36 grams per 1lb.
2) however, the low protein diet is typical for someone following Dr Fuhrman's recommendations to the letter on a weight-loss diet
3) the high protein diet is at JSABD's minimum recommendation for protein at 0.5g/lb
I am eating Dr Fuhrman's diet but with double the calories I'm getting double the calories so I have adequate protein, but an obese woman in a deficit and following Fuhrman recommendations to the letter may well not be adequate. ~15% of calories from protein is not enough for an obese person who is only eating at their unadjusted RMR.
There is always some positive to take away, even if I think it is highly distasteful of this particular academic to also take a paid position with a MLM.
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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 4 Sep 2011 02:18 pm |
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Dangers of a Low Carb Diet
Low carb (carbohydrate), high protein diets are the latest dieting craze. However, before you jump on the band wagon, you may want to consider a few things:
1. Low carb (ketogenic) diets deplete the healthy glycogen (the storage form of glucose) stores in your muscles and liver. When you deplete glycogen stores, you also dehydrate, often causing the scale to drop significantly in the first week or two of the diet. This is usually interpreted as fat loss when it's actually mostly from dehydration and muscle loss. By the way, this is one of the reasons that low carb diets are so popular at the moment - there is a quick initial, but deceptive drop in scale weight.
Glycogenesis (formation of glycogen) occurs in the liver and muscles when adequate quantities of carbohydrates are consumed - very little of this happens on a low carb diet. Glycogenolysis (breakdown of glycogen) occurs when glycogen is broken down to form glucose for use as fuel.
2. Depletion of muscle glycogen causes you to fatigue easily, and makes exercise and movement uncomfortable. Research indicates that muscle fatigue increases in almost direct proportion to the rate of depletion of muscle glycogen. Bottom line is that you don't feel energetic and you exercise and move less (often without realizing it) which is not good for caloric expenditure and basal metabolic rate (metabolism).
3. Depletion of muscle glycogen leads to muscle atrophy (loss of muscle). This happens because muscle glycogen (broken down to glucose) is the fuel of choice for the muscle during movement. There is always a fuel mix, but without muscle glycogen, the muscle fibers that contract, even at rest to maintain muscle tone, contract less when glycogen is not immediately available in the muscle. Depletion of muscle glycogen also causes you to exercise and move less than normal which leads to muscle loss and the inability to maintain adequate muscle tone.
Also, in the absence of adequate carbohydrate for fuel, the body initially uses protein (muscle) and fat. the initial phase of muscle depletion is rapid, caused by the use of easily accessed muscle protein for direct metabolism or for conversion to glucose (gluconeogenesis) for fuel. Eating excess protein does not prevent this because there is a caloric deficit.
When insulin levels are chronically too low as they may be in very low carb diets, catabolism (breakdown) of muscle protein increases, and protein synthesis stops.
4. Loss of muscle causes a decrease in your basal metabolic rate (metabolism). Metabolism happens in the muscle. Less muscle and muscle tone means a slower metabolism which means fewer calories burned 24 hours-a-day.
5. Your muscles and skin lack tone and are saggy. Saggy muscles don't look good, cause saggy skin, and cause you to lose a healthy, vibrant look (even if you've also lost fat).
6. Some proponents of low carb diets recommend avoiding carbohydrates such as bread, pasta, potatoes, carrots, etc. because of they are high on the glycemic index - causing a sharp rise in insulin. Certain carbohydrates have always been, and will always be the bad guys: candy, cookies, baked goods with added sugar, sugared drinks, processed / refined white breads, pastas, and rice, and any foods with added sugar. These are not good for health or weight loss. However, carbohydrates such as fruits, vegetables, legumes, whole grain breads and pastas, and brown rice are good for health and weight loss. Just like with proteins and fats, these carbohydrates should be eaten in moderation. Large volumes of any proteins, fats or carbohydrates are not conducive to weight loss and health.
The effect of high glycemic foods is often exaggerated. It's does matter, but to a smaller degree than is often portrayed. Also, the total glycemic effect of foods is influenced by the quantity of that food that you eat at a sitting. Smaller meals have a lower overall glycemic effect. Also, we usually eat several types of food at the same time, thereby reducing the average glycemic index of the meal, if higher glycemic foods are eaten. Also, glycemic index values can be misleading because they are based on a standard 50 grams of carbohydrate consumed. It wouldn't take much candy bar to get that, but it would take four cups of carrots. Do you usually eat four cups of carrots at a meal?
Regular exercisers and active people also are less effected by higher glycemic foods because much of the carbohydrate comsumed is immediately used to replenish glycogen stores in the liver and muscle.
By the way, if you're interested in lowering insulin levels, there is a great way to do that - exercise and activity.
7. Much of the weight loss on a low carb, high protein diet, especially in the first few weeks, is actually because of dehydration and muscle loss.
8. The percentage of people that re-gain the weight they've lost with most methods of weight loss is high, but it's even higher with low carb, high protein diets. This is primarily due to three factors:
A. You have lost muscle. With that comes a slower metabolism which means fewer calories are burned 24 hours-a-day. A loss of muscle during the process of losing weight is almost a guarantee for re-gaining the lost weight, and more.
B. You re-gain the healthy fluid lost because of glycogen depletion.
C. It's difficult to maintain that type of diet long-term.
D. You have not made a change to a long-term healthy lifestyle.
9. Eating too much fat is just not healthy. I know you've heard of people whose blood levels of cholesterol and triglycerides have decreased while on a low carb, high protein diet. This often happens with weight loss, but it doesn't continue when you're on a diet high in fat. There are literally reams of research over decades that clearly indicates that an increase in consumption of animal products and/or saturated fat leads to increased incidence of heart disease, strokes, gall stones, kidney stones, arthritic symptoms, certain cancers, etc. For example, in comparing countries with varying levels of meat consumption, there is a direct relationship between the volume of meat consumption in a country and the incidence of digestive cancers (stomach, intestines, rectal, etc.).
Fat is certainly necessary, and desirable in your diet, but they should be mostly healthy fats and in moderation. Manufactured / synthetic "low fat" foods with lots of added sugar are not the answer. Neither are manufactured / synthetic "low carb" foods with artificial sweeteners or added fat. By the way, use of artificial sweeteners has never been shown to aid in weight loss and they may pose health problems. According to Dr. Keith-Thomas Ayoob of Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York, "In my experience, unless you're willing to throw out decades of research, you cannot ignore that diets chronically high in saturated fats are linked to heart disease," Dr. Ayoob is also a spokesman for the American Dietetic Association and says that low carb, high protein diets are an attempt at a quick fix and not a long-term lifestyle change.
10. As someone recently told me, "it must work - people are losing weight". People that are truly losing fat on low carb, high protein diets, are doing so because they are eating fewer calories - that's the bottom line. There is no magic - the same can be done on a healthy diet.
11. Low carb diets are lacking in fiber. Every plant-based food has some fiber. All animal products have no fiber. A lack of fiber increases your risk for cancers of the digestive track (because transit time is lengthened) and cardiovascular disease (because of fibers effect on fat and cholesterol). It also puts you at a higher risk for constipation and other bowel disorders.
12. Low carb diets lack sufficient quantities of the the many nutrients / phytonutrients / antioxidants found in fruits, vegetables, legumes, and whole grains, necessary for health and aiding in prevention of cancer and heart disease. In fact, you need these nutrients even more so when you're consuming too much fat as is often the case on a low carb high protein diet.
13. Amercans already consume more than twice the amount of protein needed. Add to that a high protein diet and you have far too much protein consumption. By the way, most people don't realize that all fruits, all vegetables, all whole grains, and all legumes also contain protein. Animal products contain larger quantities of protein, but that may not be a good thing. Excess dietary protein puts you at a higher risk for many health problems: gout (painful joints from high purine foods which are usually high protein foods), kidney disease, kidney stones, osteoporosis (excess dietary protein causes leeching of calcium from the bones). By the way, countries with lower, healthier intakes of protein also have a decreased incidence of osteoporosis.
14. Low carb, high protein diets cause an unhealthy physiological state called ketosis, a type of metabolic acidosis. You may have heard the phrase, "fat burns in the flame of carbohydrate". Excess acetyl CoA cannot enter the Krebs Cycle (you remember the old Krebs Cycle) due to insufficient OAA. In other words, for fat to burn efficiently and without production of excess toxic ketones, sufficient carbohydrate must be available. Ketosis can lead to many health problems and can be very serious at it's extreme.
15. Bad breath. Often called "keto breath" or "acetone breath", it's caused by production of acetones in a state of ketosis.
So why the low carb, high protein craze? I believe there are several reasons.
A. Weight loss (mostly muscle and muscle fluid) is often rapid during the first few weeks. This causes people to think they're losing fat rapidly.
B. It gives you "permission" to eat the "bad foods": bacon, eggs, burgers, steak, cheese, etc., and lots of fat.
C. Many see it as the new "magic" they've been looking for, although it's been around, in various forms, since the 1960's.
http://www.sideroad.com/Weight_Loss/low-carb-diet-danger.html
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 4 Sep 2011 07:12 pm |
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| JSABD try again and this time actually read what I wrote. Hint if 65% of calories are carbs (same in both groups of the study) then it is not a low carb diet. Only by reading will you be able to take in what I am saying. Do not assume you know what I have written before you have read it. Last edited on 4 Sep 2011 07:13 pm by Nir
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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 5 Sep 2011 04:53 am |
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Nir wrote: JSABD try again and this time actually read what I wrote. Hint if 65% of calories are carbs (same in both groups of the study) then it is not a low carb diet. Only by reading will you be able to take in what I am saying. Do not assume you know what I have written before you have read it.
In 220 calorie shake they sell 80 calories are fat @ 9 grams of fat
Protein 29 grams or 116 calories from protein
Carbs 18 grams or 72 calories from carbs 12 of which are sugar.
That's low carb.
They lie and say it's 220 calories and it really is 268.
http://www.qivana.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/METABOLIQ_Ingredients_3_1_10.pdf
If someone were to eat only the shakes they would need 9 on a 2000 calorie diet. They would end up eating 261 grams of protein. A 140 pound person need less than 70 grams per day.
Too much protein damages the kidneys.
Layman is an pyramid scammer and his diet is dangerous.
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 5 Sep 2011 09:32 am |
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1) about the protein shakes
Yes you make a good point about calories in the shakes.
Even if I entirely discount the 4g of fibre and call it 14g of carbs, the total calories per serving are about 250 and not 220 as stated in that label.
Their marketing repeatedly says "Formulated at about 200 calories". Way out.
However they don't suggest using shakes for all calories. The supplement schedule http://www.kirkjonesgolf.com/pictures_kirk/metaboliq_guide.pdf suggests one instead of BREAKFAST and optionally one instead of LUNCH. So that would be 29+29 = 58 grams protein, not too excessive.
I can find no suggestion that ALL calories are consumed from shakes.
2) returning to the research
...and the carb bars vs protein bars used to supplement the 1400 of calories from food, the protein bars have 25g of protein, and the 'METABOLIQ stick' in the document you linked to is only 15g so it is a different formulation from that used in the study.
Sticking with the figures from the research (25g) let's assume the candy bars were 120 calories each.
So actual calorie intake was 1400+120+120 = 1640 (at or around unadjusted RMR)
low protein group: (15% of 1400)/4 = 52.5 grams protein
high protein group: 52.5 + 2 x 25 = 102.5 grams protein
AS PERCENTAGE CALORIES OUT OF 1640
low protein group 52.5x4/1640x100 = 12.8%
high protein group 102.5x4/1640x100 = 25.0%
12.8% is the type of intake on a Fuhrman-type diet
25% is more, but as I observed above it is only 0.5 grams per pound, hardly excessive by your standards. Right?
I do not think that you really have a problem with the research quoted above
3) now let's talk scams and pyramids and these particular products and supplements
a) I do not like the way the marketing coerces you to rely on products and supplements instead of real food, this does not teach good habits, it is a crutch
b) pyramid selling (MLM) is inheritently dishonest, whatever the product
c) the researcher has 'sold out' by taking money from this supplement company
(I am going to slightly veer off subject and mention that I am not THAT keen about the fact that Dr Fuhrman sells supplements - he reasons that me makes them because no-one else sells them in the particular formulations he recommends.)
Layman is an pyramid scammer and his diet is dangerous.
Layman has himself heavily involved in the pyramid scam and the METABOLIQ diet which he has lent his name to is needlessly expensive, needlessly complicated and not particularly nutrient-dense but not particularly high in protein or fat. In the supplement-heavy form it is principally dangerous because it does not teach a person how to eat, so they are liable to return to their old way of eating.
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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 5 Sep 2011 12:56 pm |
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Dr Phil was also selling cookies and shakes and he got in trouble with the Federal Trade Commission for false advertising. Like Layman's products they had common ingredients and offered nothing new although they claimed they did.
There was one scam that I know of that actually worked and it was called Herbal Life. The products contained ephedra/Ma Huang and diuretics. The users were instructed to drink a lot of water. I suppose that filling up on water was the real secret and the ephedra which is an amphetamine which acts as an appetite suppressant did the trick.
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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 5 Sep 2011 01:17 pm |
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Ephedra was banned in the US but I think it's actually safe. Caffeine is probably more dangerous. While I am generally against the use of weight loss supplements there are people who could benefit from ephedra. The very weak willed and people with extremely strong appetite might benefit from it. Hoodia was a touted as an appetite suppressant but it turned out to be a bust. Perhaps it doesn't really work or what is being sold is not potent enough.
These weight loss shysters prey on people who think that they can buy their way thin. It's funny Nir, I have gotten the label of fat hater and several years back when I discovered and identified fattitude I was of the believe that gluttony was intractable and I figured I'd sell the fat suckers some weight loss #%@&! but deep down I knew it was unethical so through a lot of research my team and I found the cure for fattitude.
I liken diet supplements to anti-depressants in that they are over used. They won't cure common fattitude just as anti-depressants won't cure the blues. The US being a shameless #%@&! of a country invented a disease called Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD). It's a lot of BS. We used to call it the winter blues. They now have a pill for it. We even have a cure for childhood and bad parenting called Ritilan. The point is, America is a pill popping culture. Americans, pigs that they are, think they can solve everything by shoving something down their gullets. It's hard to show people like that much respect but it is even harder not to have contempt for the industries that exploit their weaknesses and moral failings.
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Tankgirl
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: 5 Sep 2011 04:53 pm |
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Protein shakes instead of meals, where have I heard this before? Oh yeah, right, Slimfast. Medifast, etc.
JS: I agree with you on the ephedra. My mother and I used to take it by itself when it was legal. It was great for energy and it really helped with my allergies. Problem is, most of the diet pill companies combined it with several sources of caffeine (cola nut, green tea, and straight caffeine) plus a dozen other stimulants. Back when I was 250+ and had high blood pressure, taking those would make half my face go numb.It was scary! As far as hoodia, there are good ones out there, but it's expensive. Personally I'd rather eat a diet that suppresses my appetite than need hoodia, since it offers no other benefits.
Actually there's a really good pill for the winter blues - it's D3!
Last edited on 5 Sep 2011 05:01 pm by Tankgirl
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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 5 Sep 2011 05:15 pm |
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Tankgirl wrote: Protein shakes instead of meals, where have I heard this before? Oh yeah, right, Slimfast. Medifast, etc.
JS: I agree with you on the ephedra. My mother and I used to take it by itself when it was legal. It was great for energy and it really helped with my allergies. Problem is, most of the diet pill companies combined it with several sources of caffeine (cola nut, green tea, and straight caffeine) plus a dozen other stimulants. Back when I was 250+ and had high blood pressure, taking those would make half my face go numb.It was scary! As far as hoodia, there are good ones out there, but it's expensive. Personally I'd rather eat a diet that suppresses my appetite than need hoodia, since it offers no other benefits.
Actually there's a really good pill for the winter blues - it's D3!
Great info Tankwoman. Thanks.
Protein is a great appetite supressant
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Tankgirl
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: 5 Sep 2011 05:20 pm |
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Stimulants are an occupational hazard of call center life. I used to take metabolife to work 12 hour shifts and still try to be as perky and speedy as possible. After I started having symptoms from it I finally looked at the label.Of course, I conveniently forgot that my weight jacking my blood pressure up was the other half of the equation.
The scariest one was Zenadrine though, some girls on my team took it and it made them agressive and angry. It was like they were on meth! 
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 5 Sep 2011 05:57 pm |
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| As a by-the-by, I invested in a 10,000 lux 'light box' for ?é?ú40. There is 20 years of research to show that 30 minutes of exposure in the morning gives benefit. In fact I don't have S.A.D. but will be trying my luck with it anyhow.
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