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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 30 Jul 2011 01:27 am |
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Resentful towards slender women
Very rarely well educated and hate hard science
Positions formed from gut feelings and reactions
Stubbornly convinced of their own position to the point of delusion
Morally relativistic: If other people's health is bad it is their own fault for not following HAES but if their health is bad it's the doctor or their genetics.
Gathers information from sources with overt anti health agendas
Obstinate and easily enraged; frequently accuses those who disagree of being trolls or fat phobic.
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 30 Jul 2011 09:36 am |
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Last night I briefly engaged with the 'Fat Accepter' in my life. This woman is in my Friday Overeaters Anonmous group but does not want to lose weight or "diet".
I suggested realistically she'll need to eat about 1500 unless she was exercising. Her responses - one was about about exercising and another about calorie-counting, apparently either of them would be "too obsessive" for her. There wasn't anything to say about exercise as I didn't think she'd do it but I then gave myself as an example - there is no need to count calories if she does not want to, so long as she can simply stick to vegetables, fruits and beans and not over-indulge on any particular food. It was her time to introduce distraction - she wanted to turn the conversation to something else (to the fact I have not gone through the 12 steps of the program). I brought the conversation back to the idea of "letting go" of trouble foods (because in her case she is not obese because she's eating too many fruits/vegetables). She then tried to de-rail the conversation again - this time attacking me for being too obsessive with my calorie counting. I explained that I count some calorie-dense foods for my last meal at the end of the day, that it takes me just 5 minutes to do it, that I need to do it or I'll end up being underweight. She had to go and speak with someone else.
Why am I engaging? because I have not given up on her.
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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 30 Jul 2011 02:13 pm |
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Nir wrote: Last night I briefly engaged with the 'Fat Accepter' in my life. This woman is in my Friday Overeaters Anonmous group but does not want to lose weight or "diet".
I suggested realistically she'll need to eat about 1500 unless she was exercising. Her responses - one was about about exercising and another about calorie-counting, apparently either of them would be "too obsessive" for her. There wasn't anything to say about exercise as I didn't think she'd do it but I then gave myself as an example - there is no need to count calories if she does not want to, so long as she can simply stick to vegetables, fruits and beans and not over-indulge on any particular food. It was her time to introduce distraction - she wanted to turn the conversation to something else (to the fact I have not gone through the 12 steps of the program). I brought the conversation back to the idea of "letting go" of trouble foods (because in her case she is not obese because she's eating too many fruits/vegetables). She then tried to de-rail the conversation again - this time attacking me for being too obsessive with my calorie counting. I explained that I count some calorie-dense foods for my last meal at the end of the day, that it takes me just 5 minutes to do it, that I need to do it or I'll end up being underweight. She had to go and speak with someone else.
Why am I engaging? because I have not given up on her.
If this woman is in your group she is there to sabotage. The FA crowd are like religious zealots who are constantly recruiting so that they can convince themselves that the thing that they know deep down is not true is true. They are in deep denial.
I have never been to an AO group but I would think that there are healthy groups and sick groups almost like what can happen in office environments where you have a few toxic members who make it bad for everyone.
The woman you describe is typical with her rationalization techniques and then the aggression when that doesn't work. Then she does the I'm right and you are wrong even though you are healthy and successful in what you did.
How do you suppose she would react if you handed her a list of the foods to eat and the foods to avoid?
In this day and age counting calories or even the dumbed down version Weight Watchers use of counting points is vital. Richard Simmons had Deal a Meal which was a terrific tool that people would buy but not use.
The woman you describe probably is a fat acceptor and she is there reinforce her twisted beliefs. She sees dieters as "sinners" like Elmer Gantry saw everyone as a sinner. If she is not there to get help for her food issues that will be what kills her then she is there mostly to sabotage. Maybe it is time to sabotage her. When NAAFA's forum was up and running we sabotaged them. They could not tell friend from foe because their message and mind sets were so ridiculous.
I recall one exchange on NAAFA when some idiot named Jennifer Portnik was babbling about metabolic set points and calories. Diet talk in generally forbidden on FA sites unless you are bashing diets. One of my characters was asking for some specific numbers. Portnik was claiming that dieting lowered the "metabolic set point" and the more often you dieted and yo yoed the lower that would become. I asked her for actually numbers and if there was a terminal number for when it finally stopped dropping. She would not answer. I then mocked her and said that farmer should yo yo diet their livestock. That way, after a few cycles of yo yo dieting they would never have to feed their animals.
The truth is that BMR drops as people lose weight and it is normal and it is a good thing. Slow metabolic rates in healthy people are good. Less oxidation means longer cell life. That is why CRON works.
If the FA crowd is not lying they are denying reality. You will never get a straight answer from them and their science guy is a sleazy creepy lawyer and author of the Obesity Myth Paul Campos. As we all know lawyers are liars. A lot of these people are just stupid and others are sickos and the rest are liars who eek out a living conning gullible fat people who are looking to be conned.
It is easy to plant the seeds of fat acceptance as most fat people are fat acceptors in many ways.
Last edited on 30 Jul 2011 02:15 pm by JSABD
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Tankgirl
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: 30 Jul 2011 02:56 pm |
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If it's possible to lower your body's set point, how is this bad? Sounds like an easy way to cut the grocery budget  Last edited on 30 Jul 2011 02:57 pm by Tankgirl
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 30 Jul 2011 04:06 pm |
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This woman joined the group because she was binge-eating uncontrollably and now that she is not she feels that is enough recovery for her and having stopped binge-eating she lost 25-30lb but she is still obese and has now been stable for about a year. She celebrates her victory over binge-eating and the mental anguish this caused her but on the other hand she remembers a lifetime of dieting and the distress it caused her (either 'mental' distress or 'feeling hungry'). This is a club-house for her, a chance to meet with friends. She is not deliberately trying to spread her message, it is primarily just for her. She probably does not even know what fat acceptance is - she just practices it in her life. So yes I would agree there is some denial there.
Health of local OA group: discounting the relative newcomers who are understandably large, there are 2 people who have not stabalised at a normal weight - the woman I mentioned who is obese, and a man who at some point in the last 4 years got down to normal but is also in some 'denial' and has now simplified his approach to "I eat when I'm hungry and stop when I'm not" and is now clearly overweight (also a member of my gym so I've seen him without a shirt). Other than 2 people, the group is doing fine.
Are these members toxic for the group, and new people in particular? I wouldn't rule it out.
How do you suppose she would react if you handed her a list of the foods to eat and the foods to avoid?
She would say this is restrictive, like being on a diet, the kind of insanity she is now 'recovered' from. (My reply would be that she needs to change her mindset so basing or limiting your intake to healthy foods need not feel restrictive)
I am still hopeful that both of these individuals can be turned around. However I am mindful of my role, I don't want to be a bully. I do think that maybe one day when there are lots of slim people in the room I would get in early on and "welcome any suggestions for being slim" and encourage other people to share about how easy/hard they find doing it. I am operating within the constraints of a 12-step meeting though - we talk about ourselves and "cross-talk" and advice-giving is not permitted during the meeting.
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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 30 Jul 2011 04:37 pm |
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How do you think she would react to the term caloric poisoning?
There is what I consider food. Meat, milk, vegetables, fruits, eggs, bread pasta and then the rest is junk food and within the "food" category there are poor, fair, good and excellent foods.
People would be wise to make a distinction between food and junk food. It is far more difficult to get fat on food than it is on junk food.
Obesity is the result of extreme caloric poisoning.
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 30 Jul 2011 04:44 pm |
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On the one hand I'm pretty sure that this person is open to the idea of having certain "trigger foods" that she has ruled out completely (chocolate, cakes etc.)
On the other hand I think she is stuck with the idea that any form of calorie-control or portion-control is "obsessiveness". So with her some of the foods you mention (bread) would be part of the problem rather than part of the solution. In her case the problem is that she has not yet put enough foods on her "forbidden list".
So long as she feels that counting calories is 'the enemy' my approach with her would be to focus on the types of food where the size of the stomach self-regulates intake.
Of course it would make sense for her to acknowledge that there are other ways of measuring out sensible portions besides weight-based calorie counting, but I'm trying to influence this person in a rather tricky environment. I'm not her friend, her boss, her blood relative or her doctor/counsellor. I have a limited platform.
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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 30 Jul 2011 05:23 pm |
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Nir wrote: On the one hand I'm pretty sure that this person is open to the idea of having certain "trigger foods" that she has ruled out completely (chocolate, cakes etc.)
On the other hand I think she is stuck with the idea that any form of calorie-control or portion-control is "obsessiveness". So with her some of the foods you mention (bread) would be part of the problem rather than part of the solution. In her case the problem is that she has not yet put enough foods on her "forbidden list".
So long as she feels that counting calories is 'the enemy' my approach with her would be to focus on the types of food where the size of the stomach self-regulates intake.
Of course it would make sense for her to acknowledge that there are other ways of measuring out sensible portions besides weight-based calorie counting, but I'm trying to influence this person in a rather tricky environment. I'm not her friend, her boss, her blood relative or her doctor/counsellor. I have a limited platform.
There is a term called orthorexia and it means that people are overly concerned about eating healthy food. If had to trade on ED for another I would pick this one.
I suspect that many EDs are a manifestation of some free floating anxiety. While I am not an advocate of medicating people, short term anti anxiety drugs with the right therapy (Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy) could prove helpful. The medications change their behaviors and thinking because the anxiety is knocked down some. Then their brains rewire. Without therapy the meds are less effective and if used long term they are dangerous.
People like her are irrational. Their emotions, beliefs and behaviors are irrational. Discovering the root cause is like finding a needle is a haystack. All we can do is confront them about their irrational thinking and actions and ask them why A, B, C and D are rational or helpful to them. You have to know when to make that move.
If Puffs had gone through the procedure that I use it would have been done in the correct order. She would not have seen the trip wires and after she got through snaring herself with her irrational stuff she would have emerged free of that sort of thinking and acting. She would have stopped doing that dance and broken the cycle. Her obsession with proving me wrong was less about proving me wrong and more a fear of letting go of those destructive but comfortable dance steps. Some people fear success more than failure.
Food is a crutch that people don't need. It is a salve for a wound that has been healed long ago. Hunger becomes and itch that they love to scratch so they apply all sorts of street corner psycho-babble to it and other convoluted misinformation. It becomes a tangle that can't be untangled. The need to toss it all out and start fresh.
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Tankgirl
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: 30 Jul 2011 05:24 pm |
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Thanks for jumping in JS, was thinking along similar lines:
Antifreeze ( unless specifically treated) tastes sweet, so much so that it's a hazard to pets and kids.
Antifreeze may taste good, but I'm sure not going to ingest it!
And I used to hate counting calories too. Still not my favorite thing but it's one of the "pain in the butt, but necessary" things I have to do. Like paying bills, showing up for work, etc. if I want to keep the net on or the paycheck coming, I have do those. If I want to stop shopping at "lame" Bryant, well gotta count the calories too. Plus, sometimes I learn some interesting things from it.
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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 30 Jul 2011 06:39 pm |
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Tankgirl wrote: Thanks for jumping in JS, was thinking along similar lines:
Antifreeze ( unless specifically treated) tastes sweet, so much so that it's a hazard to pets and kids.
Antifreeze may taste good, but I'm sure not going to ingest it!
And I used to hate counting calories too. Still not my favorite thing but it's one of the "pain in the butt, but necessary" things I have to do. Like paying bills, showing up for work, etc. if I want to keep the net on or the paycheck coming, I have do those. If I want to stop shopping at "lame" Bryant, well gotta count the calories too. Plus, sometimes I learn some interesting things from it.
Wonderfully said!
It is astounding how people allow their tongues to rule their higher functions. I think people would eat dog turds if you rolled them in bread crumbs and deep fried them.
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Tankgirl
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: 30 Jul 2011 06:41 pm |
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Does "Civet coffee" come close enough ?
The things people eat when they have more money than sense...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/18/world/asia/18civetcoffee.html
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TheAntiTroll
New Member
| Joined: | 24 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 49 |
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Posted: 30 Jul 2011 07:23 pm |
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| http://blogs.plos.org/obesitypanacea/2010/11/05/how-many-of-us-will-be-obese-in-2050/
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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 30 Jul 2011 09:21 pm |
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TheAntiTroll wrote: http://blogs.plos.org/obesitypanacea/2010/11/05/how-many-of-us-will-be-obese-in-2050/
It's already 34% obese and that study says that by 2050 the obesity rate will be 42%. I think that figure is optimistic. I also suspect that the lean percentage will stay the same. I think what will happen is that the overweight will graduate to obese. I hope that's the case.
I read that by 2020 there won't be enough fit people to perform public service and military duty. Surgeon General Richard Carmona called the obesity crisis a greater threat to national security than al qeda.
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Tankgirl
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: 30 Jul 2011 09:29 pm |
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Don't you think there will eventually be a social backlash against the obese? People love having something to blame things on. Eventually I'm concerned there will come a day where people actually start to say out loud "We can't afford national health care because you can't put down the Ho-hos" or some kind of actual fat tax, not on junk food, but on people above a certain BMI or waist size, similar to Japan.
LOL, sounds like an episode of South Park
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TheAntiTroll
New Member
| Joined: | 24 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 49 |
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Posted: 30 Jul 2011 09:58 pm |
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| Actually Overweight people (BMI 25-30) have greater majority becoming normal weight than obese, i can't find the study onff the top of my head tho
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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 30 Jul 2011 09:59 pm |
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Tankgirl wrote: Don't you think there will eventually be a social backlash against the obese? People love having something to blame things on. Eventually I'm concerned there will come a day where people actually start to say out loud "We can't afford national health care because you can't put down the Ho-hos" or some kind of actual fat tax, not on junk food, but on people above a certain BMI or waist size, similar to Japan.
LOL, sounds like an episode of South Park
The backlash is coming from them. The fat and the obese are the majority so their complaint that they are victims of fat discrimination is absurd.
Take the Blacks vs Whites thing. Blacks are not oppressing Whites and when some KKK or skin head idiot says they are the oppressors nobody takes them seriously. We can't take the FA movement seriously and I don't think on most levels most fat people do take them seriously.
The civil rights movement was comprised of Black and White men and women but the FA movement is 99% obese and morbidly obese fat White women.
I did some research on mental illness and I found that Black women have a lower incidence of mental illness than White women but they have a higher incidence of obesity. I am not entirely sure what conclusions we can draw from that but thinking off the top of my hand I would think that when culturally Black women read the FA propaganda they see it for the absurdity that it is. Most White women see it as absurd too but in the Black culture the women are not as vain from what I have seen. The seem to have far less eating disorders. Some of this may be genetic and some of it may be cultural.
The costs of obesity are staggering and it effects more than health care. It is in the billions. It hurts society in many ways. Everything cost more now because of fat people. Everything has to be bigger and more convenient to accommodate their size and wants. The are millions of Americans who could not fit into a compact car of the 70's. I remember reading that the VW Rabbit of the 80's got 53 MPG. Today cars average about 20 MPG. Imagine if the US used half the gasoline than we do now.
Having a 28" waist I have a tough time finding pants. Boys pants are not cut to accommodate my man parts and they aren't long enough in the legs. Most of the time the smallest I can find is 32". It sucks.
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TheAntiTroll
New Member
| Joined: | 24 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 49 |
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Posted: 30 Jul 2011 10:13 pm |
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| get a tighter belt and buckle in the 32' jeans
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Tankgirl
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: 31 Jul 2011 04:33 am |
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| Lucky Denim and 7 for All mankind make mens' jeans with a 28 inch waist. Not cheap by a long shot, but if it matters..... Last edited on 31 Jul 2011 04:40 am by Tankgirl
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TheAntiTroll
New Member
| Joined: | 24 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 49 |
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Posted: 31 Jul 2011 09:48 am |
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| Or weight train and add 4 inches of muscle
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McBalls
Senior Member
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Posted: 31 Jul 2011 01:11 pm |
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| You're not really much of a troll. You're very transparent, and kind of just a jerk to be honest. You're sitting here telling someone who is actually in shape that their appearance isn't adequate on this forum? I wonder how that makes people that aren't quite there yet feel? I think you should tone it down on the JS bashing and focus on bettering your own life. Everyone here knows what he's like, so there's really no need for any further provocative statements on your part now that he's behaving himself. It just makes you look like the replacement or something.
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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 31 Jul 2011 04:03 pm |
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McBalls wrote: You're not really much of a troll. You're very transparent, and kind of just a jerk to be honest. You're sitting here telling someone who is actually in shape that their appearance isn't adequate on this forum? I wonder how that makes people that aren't quite there yet feel? I think you should tone it down on the JS bashing and focus on bettering your own life. Everyone here knows what he's like, so there's really no need for any further provocative statements on your part now that he's behaving himself. It just makes you look like the replacement or something.
Anti troll is so full of #%@&!. When a man has a 28" waist and can fight at super welter weight that means his body fat is low and his muscle mass is high.
My "misbehavior" was to shake up the status quo and to get people to think outside the box. I a few more years my approach will be the mainstream. Until the obese know to the very fiber of their being that they caused it and only they can cure it the will get fatter and sicker.
Hopefully more fatlings will trickle in here and get the help that will actually work. I will go from goat to hero.
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