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PuffsPlus
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 25 Jul 2011 08:05 pm |
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JSABD/Chris,
I contend that the following claims you have made are no more than your opinions and do not comport with objective reality:
1) Fat people use the words "I" and "me" more than lean people.
2) People who have lost weight for altruistic reasons are more likely to keep that weight off than people who have lost weight for altruistic reasons.
You keep challenging other people to prove their claims. Here is your chance to prove yours. Go for it!
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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 25 Jul 2011 09:03 pm |
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PuffsPlus wrote: JSABD/Chris,
I contend that the following claims you have made are no more than your opinions and do not comport with objective reality:
1) Fat people use the words "I" and "me" more than lean people.
2) People who have lost weight for altruistic reasons are more likely to keep that weight off than people who have lost weight for altruistic reasons.
You keep challenging other people to prove their claims. Here is your chance to prove yours. Go for it!
Read the post here or on any forum for why they want to lose weight. It is self evident. Do to a FA blog and count and then go to any other blog. I observed this a long time ago.
My sister has some fat friends and I did sit there and count and it was about 3 to 1.
Read the success forum. Also the peeps I help end up doing it for altruistic reasons. This is not to say that people who lose weight don't do it for selfish reasons but it has been my experience and through keen observation that the one who have the most success, especially the females are the ones who do it for unselfish reasons as well as selfish ones. I think it has to do with the mother instinct in human females.
There is an I, me, my factor. I am not saying all fat girls have it but next time you see a talk show or are just hanging with friends sit there and count.
Did I conduct scientific studies? Not really. I am speaking from vast experience.
You made a statement about central heating causing obesity. I disproved that quite easily. Can you show any credible data that explains how artificially heated and cooled air can significantly effect body weight in humans?
Theoretically cooled air form an AC unit would possible cause weight loss and here is why. The first thing an A/C unit does is remove moisture form the air. That means when we sweat in a dry room we experience latent cooling. It's called evaporative cooling. If you were in the dessert and the humidity level was 2% and the sensible heat was 90F and you had a six pack of beer that you wanted cooler you could place it in a wet cloth bag and as the beer and the temp would drop about 15 or more degrees.
The dessert can have a high temperature but people feel cooler due to evaporation. If you keep your house humidified in the winter (most people don't) you can set your thermostat lower and still feel comfortable. Theoretically and probably in reality artificial heating may cause weight loss because it increases energy demands on the body. The amount would be insignificant either. The guy who came up with that theory needs to go back to high school.
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PuffsPlus
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 26 Jul 2011 07:50 am |
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JSABD wrote: Read the post here or on any forum for why they want to lose weight. It is self evident. Do to a FA blog and count and then go to any other blog. I observed this a long time ago.
My sister has some fat friends and I did sit there and count and it was about 3 to 1.
Also, I see a quantifiable claim, at last. So you are claiming fat selfish girls use "I" and "me" about 3 times more than thin girls?
Read the success forum. Also the peeps I help end up doing it for altruistic reasons. This is not to say that people who lose weight don't do it for selfish reasons but it has been my experience and through keen observation that the one who have the most success, especially the females are the ones who do it for unselfish reasons as well as selfish ones. I think it has to do with the mother instinct in human females.
OK, this paragraph sounds reasonable. I can believe that in *your own experience* this is the case.
Did I conduct scientific studies? Not really. I am speaking from vast experience.
Here's a new concept to familiarize yourself with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias . I contend that your claims about fat people that you claim are based on your personal observations display a high degree of confirmation bias.
You made a statement about central heating causing obesity. I disproved that quite easily. Can you show any credible data that explains how artificially heated and cooled air can significantly effect body weight in humans?
No, you didn't disprove anything. You just declared the descriptions of studies I linked to "junk science".
Also, you seem to have a hard time grasping that the conclusions of these studies are nuanced. Don't feel too badly, that's true of a lot of people. The studies did not claim that artificial heating and cooling caused obesity, merely that they might contribute to it. They also posited a mechanism by which this occurs, which is important. Any potential cause has to have a plausible mechanism. More on that below.
Theoretically cooled air form an AC unit would possible cause weight loss and here is why. The first thing an A/C unit does is remove moisture form the air. That means when we sweat in a dry room we experience latent cooling. It's called evaporative cooling. If you were in the dessert and the humidity level was 2% and the sensible heat was 90F and you had a six pack of beer that you wanted cooler you could place it in a wet cloth bag and as the beer and the temp would drop about 15 or more degrees.
The dessert can have a high temperature but people feel cooler due to evaporation. If you keep your house humidified in the winter (most people don't) you can set your thermostat lower and still feel comfortable. Theoretically and probably in reality artificial heating may cause weight loss because it increases energy demands on the body. The amount would be insignificant either. The guy who came up with that theory needs to go back to high school.
I don't dispute your expertise in heating and cooling and thermodynamics of machinery. That is your professional area of expertise after all.
But the human body is not a mechanical HVAC device. The human body exhibits a trait called "homeostasis", and it costs energy in the form of calories metabolized to maintain homeostasis. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeostasis .
Exposure to temperature variations in either the hot or cold directions require the body to expend more energy to maintain homeostasis.
Last edited on 26 Jul 2011 02:44 pm by PuffsPlus
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Nancy_in_GA
Moderator
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Posted: 26 Jul 2011 10:53 am |
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Here is a thought about how AC *might* contribute to obesity in hot humid climates, but in an indirect way.
We live in the southeast. Summer is hot and humid. When you step outside the AC in the summer you are hit with an immediate blast of heat that makes you want to run back inside and bolt the door. Not very conducive to outdoor activity. Easy to say "forget it" and become sedentary. And once you gain a little weight it makes it even worse. If you stay out in the heat for awhile you start to get used to it and activity becomes bearable, but many people don't get that far, and I can't say I blame them.
Before the days of AC, people just got out and did things because it was just as miserable inside as outside. And in those days more activity outside was required---impossible to just say "forget it." And there are people who can't afford good AC still.
Just a thought, but flame retardent suit on just in case....
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TheAntiTroll
New Member
| Joined: | 24 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 49 |
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Posted: 26 Jul 2011 10:59 am |
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In the summer turn on AC to <60 F and in the Winter do not turn on the heater, cold temperature causes a thermogenic effect that forces your body to warm up and burns anywhere up to 100 extra calories a day.
EDit: extreme hot conditions causes you to sweat, circulate blood more, and increases heart rate which all requires calories, so exercising outside in the summer also burns extra calories.
Message of the day: any extreme temperatures burns extra caloriesLast edited on 26 Jul 2011 11:04 am by TheAntiTroll
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PuffsPlus
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 26 Jul 2011 11:33 am |
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The simplest explanation is that the body burns extra calories when it has to struggle to maintain homeostasis.
Using heat and AC basically allows you to keep a fairly constant temp throughout the year. Exposures to extreme cold and heat forces your body to work harder to keep your body temp constant.
The thought is that if you deliberately expose yourself to temps outside of your comfort range, you will burn more calories.
The desire to stay indoors when indoor temps are much comfier than outdoor temps no doubt plays a role too.
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PuffsPlus
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 26 Jul 2011 05:38 pm |
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TheAntiTroll wrote: In the summer turn on AC to <60 F...
Or just don't use A/C in the summer. Making your body deal with heat also burns more calories and is certainly cheaper on your electric bills than making your body artificially chilled using mega-AC.
Last edited on 26 Jul 2011 05:39 pm by PuffsPlus
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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 26 Jul 2011 06:55 pm |
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OMG!! People are applying some rational thought and reason
In the winter people hole up and keep their home at 76F on average. They bundle up and in Canada the obesity rate is 1/2 that of the US.
It has been suggested that light has an effect on the hypothalamus and that as the days grow shorter people eat more to compensate for the ensuing winter months. It sounds logical but reality disputes it.
In an office with the A/C blasting the fat girls are comfy and the skinny girls are wearing sweaters.
The effect of climate and temperature is insignificant. What is significant is culture, IQ and and education.
The South East is the fattest and the dumbest. It is the most religious and the most racist. Religious folks tend to be the most easily led. I know saying that is politically incorrect but it's true. They are going to be prone to be seduced by advertising. Southerners really are lazy and the culture is food centric. The new word is obesogens but blaming thing that may add to obesity is like saying guns kill people and sugar causes tooth decay. It is not a true statement. Eating sugar causes tooth decay and bullets fired from guns by people at people kill them.
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TheAntiTroll
New Member
| Joined: | 24 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 49 |
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Posted: 26 Jul 2011 07:29 pm |
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There are much more factors to why "southern" states are fatter than northern coastline states: for one, southern states are much more urban and focus on the family and small town community aspect than metropolitan areas. One way (and common) is for people to observe religion and eat together. Also the culture of the south is more prone to fatty and fried foods because of HISTORY: tastier fried and "soul foods" are cheaper, more accessible, and rooted to the culture. Staples such as beans/rice + meats + cheese are highly caloric eaten together but they developed a culture around eating and enjoying them together. If everyone (parents, friends) around you eat these staples and watching your weight is unheard of what would promote you to do it? New England and California have more access to seafood and their staples are much more commonly baked/boiled.
In more metropolitan areas (the ones on map with lower obesity rates) theres a less united spirit when every single day you can meet thousands of random people on the street as opposed to being in a small town with people you know. Thus people are more aware of their look: join gyms, eat healthier, and have more access to organic/low calorie/vegetarian foods (Access = You forgot that the income density of these areas are FOLDS higher than urban areas and eating healthy is costly). Also, many of these commercial districts pay attention to physical appearances because everyone for example in Boston or NYC are in the service industry: whether you are a stock broker or a shop keeper-- Being fat here attracts prejudice.
Education wise, the North leads the south in terms of high school graduation rates and college matriculations, and studies (I've read one but I will happily go find it again for you) have shown that higher education rates lead to less obesity NOT BECAUSE EDUCATIOn-> you are not fat but because higher education = higher income and better access to healthier foods and spending your time doing other things than enjoying gourtmet.
These are absolutely NOT EXCUSES, they are Contributors to why you can simply pin points on a map and say: oh the south they are all fat, the north they aren't. . . must be because they are religious post-KKK rednecks.
You can't change the world
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PuffsPlus
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 26 Jul 2011 07:42 pm |
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This fat girl doesn't like super cold A/C either, I'm telling you. I have an extra sweater at work to guard against the "meat locker" setting on the A/C at work.
Also, one correction to JSABD's earlier claim: Canada has 70% of the obesity rate of the US, not half. Obesity rate in the US: 34%; obesity rate in Canada: 24%
Source: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/03/03/obesity-rate-higher-canada/
The US is much more car dependent than Canada too. Coincidence? 
Last edited on 26 Jul 2011 08:31 pm by PuffsPlus
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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 26 Jul 2011 09:44 pm |
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PuffsPlus wrote: This fat girl doesn't like super cold A/C either, I'm telling you. I have an extra sweater at work to guard against the "meat locker" setting on the A/C at work.
Also, one correction to JSABD's earlier claim: Canada has 70% of the obesity rate of the US, not half. Obesity rate in the US: 34%; obesity rate in Canada: 24%
Source: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/03/03/obesity-rate-higher-canada/
The US is much more car dependent than Canada too. Coincidence?
US is 30.6% and Canada is 14.3 http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_obe-health-obesity
Fox News is not news. It's propaganda.
I am going to cut you some slack. If you are fat and cold then you may have a slow thyroid. A slow thyroid can slightly slow your BMR even if it is sub clinical. Have you been tested for hypothyroidsim? I don't want you to use this as an excuse but it may be a good idea to get thyroid panel done. If you do need medication ask your doc to give you Armour other than Synthroid or its nasty cousins.
Your fact checking of me is not going to help you lose weight. Nit picking and splitting hairs is not going to help you live longer or keep your man if you have one.
If you want to discredit me publicly all you have to do is go through my program and give it an honest shot. You have nothing to lose but weight. I will be exceedingly kind in the process and if it doesn't work you get to gloat, remain fat and unhealthy and tell all your buddies at FFF what a jerk and loser I am. No matter what happens you win. The question you need to ask is what is more important to you, your pride and being right of you health and your responsibility to yourself and your loved ones.
What you have done so far in your attempt and lifestyle reform has not worked. There is a good chance that I can't help you because you first need to want to help yourself but right now I am the best chance you got.
If you have other issues like deep emotional ones that are keeping you fat I would not be comfortable going there with you and at the same time I cannot recommend a good therapist. I hope that you are just a run of the mill glutton because that is easy to fix. That being said and from what I have gleaned from you so far, I don't think you have to spend the rest of your days fat and maybe it's time that you believe that as well.
As much as you hate me, I am not your enemy.
Last edited on 26 Jul 2011 09:46 pm by JSABD
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PuffsPlus
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 27 Jul 2011 08:46 am |
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JSABD wrote: US is 30.6% and Canada is 14.3 http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_obe-health-obesity
Fox News is not news. It's propaganda.
Fox was only citing a study, not claiming to have done original research. See http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-625-x/2011001/article/11411-eng.htm . Same #s: 24% for Canada, 34% for US.
The other site you linked do does not cite their data source from what I can tell. Could be out of date.
While considering the source of a claim, you have to look at the claim itself and the data provided. You can't just dismiss something because you don't trust the source. You know the saying: even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Your fact checking of me is not going to help you lose weight. Nit picking and splitting hairs is not going to help you live longer or keep your man if you have one.
That's both a dodge and a veiled insult, I think. My husband is not going anywhere, but thanks for the concern.
Why I'm doing this: You make a lot of claims and, in the interest of defending the truth, I think it's time someone asked you to pony up the evidence for your claims. You like to challenge people to prove what they claim. OK, here is your chance to do the same.
I know you are a fan of the concept of "teaching moments". Let me then explain both to you and all the lurkers out there why see engaging you in these debates is valuable: in short, you provide many MANY teaching moments in the area of logical reasoning and scientific literacy. You misinterpret research, you display confirmation bias, and you fall into logical fallacies quite frequently. So, I am attempting to teach you and other readers of these threads how to avoid such errors in thinking and reasoning. This is not hatred; this is me trying to teach you.
Some other posters here, such as suenos, have also given you great "teaching moments" on the subject of interpreting studies and statistics. You say you're here to teach us how to lose weight and keep it off. OK, fair enough, that's why you're posting here. But clearly a lot of us here can teach YOU some lessons, if you're open to learning them.
And even if you're not, other readers might be. So I don't see my effort here as wasted.
Besides, I can certainly debate with you online WHILE losing weight. The two are not mutually exclusive. Let's see, while I write posts to you, I'm not snacking or bingeing. See, this IS going to help me lose weight, lol! 
Oh, and debating you also gets my brain working, which helps to counteract the alleged IQ-dampening effects of my obesity, right? And, let's face it, it's FUN.
Last edited on 27 Jul 2011 09:03 am by PuffsPlus
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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 27 Jul 2011 04:39 pm |
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PuffsPlus wrote: JSABD wrote: US is 30.6% and Canada is 14.3 http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_obe-health-obesity
Fox News is not news. It's propaganda.
Fox was only citing a study, not claiming to have done original research. See http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-625-x/2011001/article/11411-eng.htm . Same #s: 24% for Canada, 34% for US.
The other site you linked do does not cite their data source from what I can tell. Could be out of date.
While considering the source of a claim, you have to look at the claim itself and the data provided. You can't just dismiss something because you don't trust the source. You know the saying: even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Let's split the difference or look for other sources. I just don't trust Fox News because the cherry pick.
When if come to being overweight the US was nearly 75% in 2007 and Canada was 61% but I think with obesity it is different.
Here are some sobering facts.
Until 1980, fewer than one in 10 people in industrialized countries like the United States were obese.
Today, these rates have doubled or tripled. In almost half of developed countries, one out of every two people is overweight or obese. These populations are expected to get even heavier in the near future, and in some countries two out of three people are projected to be obese within 10 years.
Those are some of the disturbing statistics from a new report released today by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, a research and membership organization that focuses on the world?óÔé¼Ôäós richest nations.
Your fact checking of me is not going to help you lose weight. Nit picking and splitting hairs is not going to help you live longer or keep your man if you have one.
That's both a dodge and a veiled insult, I think. My husband is not going anywhere, but thanks for the concern.
Let me clue you in on something. This is some inside guy stuff. Men don't tell their wives everything. If you were to ask him if you being fat bothers him chances are you will not get an honest answer. Men like peace and they think that it would hurt the wives feelings. Women are more sensitive about their weight than men and men know that. Take the show the Honeymooners. Alice and Norton can make fat jokes about Ralph but if Alice was the fat one even back in the 50's a fat Alice you not be fair game.
I don't know your hubby but I know men. My friends with fat wives complain all the time to me about them. They are afraid to tell their wives how they feel. You will see the same thing on MFS and you will see that the lean wives have confronted their husbands in many cases and the hubby just blows them off. The husbands rarely confront their wives and when they do they walk on eggshells.
Why I'm doing this: You make a lot of claims and, in the interest of defending the truth, I think it's time someone asked you to pony up the evidence for your claims. You like to challenge people to prove what they claim. OK, here is your chance to do the same.
I know you are a fan of the concept of "teaching moments". Let me then explain both to you and all the lurkers out there why see engaging you in these debates is valuable: in short, you provide many MANY teaching moments in the area of logical reasoning and scientific literacy. You misinterpret research, you display confirmation bias, and you fall into logical fallacies quite frequently. So, I am attempting to teach you and other readers of these threads how to avoid such errors in thinking and reasoning. This is not hatred; this is me trying to teach you.
Some other posters here, such as suenos, have also given you great "teaching moments" on the subject of interpreting studies and statistics. You say you're here to teach us how to lose weight and keep it off. OK, fair enough, that's why you're posting here. But clearly a lot of us here can teach YOU some lessons, if you're open to learning them.
And even if you're not, other readers might be. So I don't see my effort here as wasted.
Besides, I can certainly debate with you online WHILE losing weight. The two are not mutually exclusive. Let's see, while I write posts to you, I'm not snacking or bingeing. See, this IS going to help me lose weight, lol!
Oh, and debating you also gets my brain working, which helps to counteract the alleged IQ-dampening effects of my obesity, right? And, let's face it, it's FUN.
Gotta run I have more to say on this.
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JSABD
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 27 Jul 2011 09:03 pm |
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PuffsPlus wrote:
Why I'm doing this: You make a lot of claims and, in the interest of defending the truth, I think it's time someone asked you to pony up the evidence for your claims. You like to challenge people to prove what they claim. OK, here is your chance to do the same.
You make a lot of general statements that are usually fact free. You say I make claims but you never say what they are and you never have any factual evidence to refute them because you fail to identify those "claims". So while you defend your version of the truth or what you would like the truth to be your health declines. Here is something that you cannot dispute. I am lean and you are fat so it does not take a great mental leap to know that I know what I am doing and what I am talking about and you don't. When you achieve a healthy weight then I will take your notions seriously but until then I am not going to indulge what is clearly a very transparent defense mechanism.
I know you are a fan of the concept of "teaching moments". Let me then explain both to you and all the lurkers out there why see engaging you in these debates is valuable: in short, you provide many MANY teaching moments in the area of logical reasoning and scientific literacy. You misinterpret research, you display confirmation bias, and you fall into logical fallacies quite frequently. So, I am attempting to teach you and other readers of these threads how to avoid such errors in thinking and reasoning. This is not hatred; this is me trying to teach you.
Here is the problem. You are more concerned about debating than figuring out why you are eating yourself do death.
In the above paragraph you make broad and dishonest accusation. You say I am misinterpreting research yet you show no example of that. I think you have spent to much time on the FA blogs where BS thrives and facts are hated.
You are making broad baseless charges. You have some twisted agenda of which you may not even be aware. You are weaseling like an addict. The things I say touch a nerve with you have you spend hours looking for talking points and playing semantics. Again, you are fat and so far you are stuck being fat. Help is being offered and you are sticking your nose up at it. You are drowning and I am tossing you a life line and you are won't take it because you don't like the color or how I tossed it. You are the proverbial horse that can be led to water yet won't drink.
Some other posters here, such as suenos, have also given you great "teaching moments" on the subject of interpreting studies and statistics. You say you're here to teach us how to lose weight and keep it off. OK, fair enough, that's why you're posting here. But clearly a lot of us here can teach YOU some lessons, if you're open to learning them.
I have forgotten more about statistical analysis than most people know. You may be able to teach me some lessons but I can teach you how not to ever be fat and you won't meet me 12/2 way. It's your loss. Let's say you do take my offer and you totally poke holes in what I do. I'd be grateful for that. I want to perfect this method and you could help in the process even if it means discrediting it. I welcome the criticism after you go through the process.
BTW suenos has also failed to post a recent photo. She made some lame excuse.
And even if you're not, other readers might be. So I don't see my effort here as wasted.
Your effort needs to focus on saving your life.
Besides, I can certainly debate with you online WHILE losing weight. The two are not mutually exclusive. Let's see, while I write posts to you, I'm not snacking or bingeing. See, this IS going to help me lose weight, lol!
Just lose the weight and debate later.
Oh, and debating you also gets my brain working, which helps to counteract the alleged IQ-dampening effects of my obesity, right? And, let's face it, it's FUN.
We have plenty of time for spirited debate and at this point I feel a connection to you that I would feel is I came across an accident victim. I would not debate them as to how to pull them out of the road. How about you with my help figure out how to eat and exercise in such a manner that you attain the good health you need? If you wish to debate then I will engage you but if and when you get to a healthy weight and conquer your problem with food you will be too busy living the good life to be interested in debating distinctions without a difference.
Last edited on 27 Jul 2011 09:59 pm by JSABD
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