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Queenstina24
New Member
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Posted: 31 Aug 2006 06:40 pm |
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| Hello everyone! Since my last post about my depressing tremendous weight gain, I have battled and won against my worst weight demons. Once weighing 182, and now 166 I know that I have the power to be in control of everything I do in my life. Monitering every morsel that goes into my body has definetly benifitted me, about a month ago I completed my first triathlon it was amazing!! Being overweight is an issue, but my physical edurance was not- I strive to be the best when I do races and yes my times differed from when I was much thinner and to now but it proves to me that I can still be very active and achieve my goals and not let my weight bring me down. The fight goes on!!! I hope this helps motivate others...
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Peter
Founder of this forum
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Posted: 31 Aug 2006 07:03 pm |
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I totally agree with Think Thin, Be Thin.
So much of what we do comes from our subconscious. Because we think we are fat (in our conscious mind), without giving it conscious thought our subconscious mind directs us to grab for more food (even when we aren't hungry), or to watch TV rather than go for a walk.
How do we change this? When we start thinking we are what we want to be, eventually our positive thoughts work their way into our subconscious which helps to change our actions.
This is exactly what Tom Venuto teaches us to do with positive affirmations in his book Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle. And what Dr. Roberta Temes helps you do with her self-help CDs Enjoy Weight Loss. Hypnosis goes directly to your subconscious to make the changes happen more quickly.
Thanks for a great post!
Peter
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Ball
Restricted Member
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Posted: 1 Sep 2006 06:11 pm |
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Peter wrote: I totally agree with Think Thin, Be Thin.
So much of what we do comes from our subconscious. Because we think we are fat (in our conscious mind), without giving it conscious thought our subconscious mind directs us to grab for more food (even when we aren't hungry), or to watch TV rather than go for a walk.
How do we change this? When we start thinking we are what we want to be, eventually our positive thoughts work their way into our subconscious which helps to change our actions.
This is exactly what Tom Venuto teaches us to do with positive affirmations in his book Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle. And what Dr. Roberta Temes helps you do with her self-help CDs Enjoy Weight Loss. Hypnosis goes directly to your subconscious to make the changes happen more quickly.
Thanks for a great post!
Peter
I see it a bit differently. If you take the biggest glutton on the planet and feed him mostly vegetable and lean protien his jaws will get tired before he can consume enough calories to get fat.
I'm a big fan of the eat more weigh less approach that Dean Ornish MD promotes. A big appetite could be used as a positive. Imagine how healthy people would be if they chowed down on fruits and veggies instead of McDonalds.
I know that it is politically in correct to say it but the fact is most people are weak willed, hedonistic, and gluttonous. Maybe that is just how humans are or maybe its the American culture. Either way we did not become the fattest nation on earth by acting responsibly. I for one am a bit sick of the diet industries Kool Aid.
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Queenstina24
New Member
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Posted: 1 Sep 2006 06:44 pm |
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I do agree with what you say about eating, my intention wasnt telling people not to eat but eat conciously! And if people do believe they are thin, then 95% of the time they are going to be more conscious of WHAT they put in there mouth and HOW MUCH, yes I do agree eating veggies is far more healthier then McDonald's BUT they need to monitor how much veggies they also eat. But learning how to eat healthfully is a learning experience you can't just jump into it. Looking at this from your stand point is different... but I can understand also! 
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Ball
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Posted: 2 Sep 2006 12:32 am |
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Queenstina24 wrote: I do agree with what you say about eating, my intention wasnt telling people not to eat but eat conciously! And if people do believe they are thin, then 95% of the time they are going to be more conscious of WHAT they put in there mouth and HOW MUCH, yes I do agree eating veggies is far more healthier then McDonald's BUT they need to monitor how much veggies they also eat. But learning how to eat healthfully is a learning experience you can't just jump into it. Looking at this from your stand point is different... but I can understand also!
The Human brain/mind is more complex than that. If a fat person believes that they are thin they will not act like a thin person they will act like a fat perrson who thinks they are thin and they may even eat more.
It is really very simple, If a food is high in nutrients and low in calories they should eat a lot of it. If it is low in nutrients and high in calories they should not eat it at all.
Learning how to eat is as simple as eat wholesome food and keep the calories at the right level to maintain a healthy weight. A lot of shysters have written books complicating the process. Atkins comes to mind. He was a major league lowlife.
It is this simple. food doesn't make people fat. Bad food and lifstyle choices make people fat.
As to veggies, many veggie can be eaten and have zero net calories. Green beans and celery are two that have zero net calories.
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Peter
Founder of this forum
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Posted: 2 Sep 2006 06:13 am |
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Ball,
It seems that you took "Think Thin, Be Thin" to mean Think Thin, Eat Little, and that's what you disagree with. Not at all!
I follow (pretty close, anyway) the Eat To Live diet plan described on this site and if anything I have to push myself to eat enough because the food is so (highly nutritious) low calorie.
Maybe my human brain isn't so complex.  But let's say I'm working on my posture. It really helps me to think of myself as having good posture. As I think it, I find myself sitting or standing up straight.
"Thinking Thin" reminds me that I love carrots with raisins as much as a candy bar!
Peter
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Ball
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Posted: 2 Sep 2006 04:36 pm |
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Peter wrote: Ball,
It seems that you took "Think Thin, Be Thin" to mean Think Thin, Eat Little, and that's what you disagree with. Not at all!
I follow (pretty close, anyway) the Eat To Live diet plan described on this site and if anything I have to push myself to eat enough because the food is so (highly nutritious) low calorie.
Maybe my human brain isn't so complex. But let's say I'm working on my posture. It really helps me to think of myself as having good posture. As I think it, I find myself sitting or standing up straight.
"Thinking Thin" reminds me that I love carrots with raisins as much as a candy bar!
Peter
You have reprogrammed you taste buds so to speak by avoiding goodies. You have also reprogrammed your hunger center so that real food again causes you to feel full.
I guess what ever works but what is happening is that your cravings are now under control neurologically. There me some form of self hypnosis at work as well.
Quite some time ago I quit junk food. I used to love junk food but if I eat it now it makes me sick. It is amazing what a properly fed healthy body will do. These moms who take their kids to Mickey D's are programming them for a lifetime of bad eating habits.
Peter, IMO, you body is simply functioning normally because you are no longer poisoning it. Your approach makes perfect sense.
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Chiffa
New Member
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Posted: 2 Sep 2006 07:25 pm |
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Ball wrote: Quite some time ago I quit junk food. I used to love junk food but if I eat it now it makes me sick. It is amazing what a properly fed healthy body will do. These moms who take their kids to Mickey D's are programming them for a lifetime of bad eating habits.
I said in another thread, that's how it is for me now with the smell of meat cooking.
Before I quit meat (and switched to alternative soy protein) I loved the smell of meat cooking, it was the *delicious* smell, and now, it makes me sick to smell it.
About the mothers who feed their children McDonalds, I'm not yet decided, if it's because they *think/feel* they are too *busy* to cook the healthy and nutritious meals, or if they simply don't know how to eat healthy, or if they simply following the *conditioning of convenience* (and in yet another thread I discuss my own *observations* about what and how I see it, that USian *convenience* contributes to the current over-weightnedness.
Oki oki ;);) Back on Topic - I can understand how 'Think thin - be thin' works, and yes! it too is *conditioning* or "self-hypnosis" - but there is nothing wrong with "positive thinking" and matters of the mind, tend to impact on the body, they make a type of "body memory"
Remember too that no behavior is repeated, that is not rewarded. and here I mean good or bad behaviours (you don't tend to touch the hot stove more than once) Eating/thinking thin and healthy is it's own reward, when your body starts to respond with more power, more stamina, and is clear of the "poisons" that's the reward....and so it starts too, through repetition and reward to become some thing you even don't need to think about.
Ever watch the ballet dancers even walking on the streets? (I can always pick out another dancer, even in the supermarket)
Our shoulders are back, we lead with their chests, there's a posture in our arms, and our stand even when standing still - I don't know how better to describe it.
That's not some thing that happened over-night... it's the product of repetition and conscious choices - Much like how Peter now is *training* himself to have the better posture.
=)))
...Just my thoughts
Last edited on 2 Sep 2006 07:26 pm by Chiffa
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Ball
Restricted Member
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Posted: 3 Sep 2006 04:05 pm |
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Chiffa wrote: Ball wrote: Quite some time ago I quit junk food. I used to love junk food but if I eat it now it makes me sick. It is amazing what a properly fed healthy body will do. These moms who take their kids to Mickey D's are programming them for a lifetime of bad eating habits.
I said in another thread, that's how it is for me now with the smell of meat cooking.
Before I quit meat (and switched to alternative soy protein) I loved the smell of meat cooking, it was the *delicious* smell, and now, it makes me sick to smell it.
About the mothers who feed their children McDonalds, I'm not yet decided, if it's because they *think/feel* they are too *busy* to cook the healthy and nutritious meals, or if they simply don't know how to eat healthy, or if they simply following the *conditioning of convenience* (and in yet another thread I discuss my own *observations* about what and how I see it, that USian *convenience* contributes to the current over-weightnedness.
Oki oki ;);) Back on Topic - I can understand how 'Think thin - be thin' works, and yes! it too is *conditioning* or "self-hypnosis" - but there is nothing wrong with "positive thinking" and matters of the mind, tend to impact on the body, they make a type of "body memory"
Remember too that no behavior is repeated, that is not rewarded. and here I mean good or bad behaviours (you don't tend to touch the hot stove more than once) Eating/thinking thin and healthy is it's own reward, when your body starts to respond with more power, more stamina, and is clear of the "poisons" that's the reward....and so it starts too, through repetition and reward to become some thing you even don't need to think about.
Ever watch the ballet dancers even walking on the streets? (I can always pick out another dancer, even in the supermarket)
Our shoulders are back, we lead with their chests, there's a posture in our arms, and our stand even when standing still - I don't know how better to describe it.
That's not some thing that happened over-night... it's the product of repetition and conscious choices - Much like how Peter now is *training* himself to have the better posture.
=)))
...Just my thoughts
I love that term "the conditioning of convenience". That is a great way of stating what is going on.
As to McDonalds, I don't think eating McDonalds "food" will make you fat. A calories is a calorie. I do beleive that there are thing in fast food that help spike hunger cues.
I understand the theory of think thin be thin and I suppose if you think like a thin person you will act like a thin person and not overeat. Another approach is to watch what fat people do and then don't do it. We know what fat people do and we know why they are fat. The problem is the seem not to know why they are fat. My BMI is 22.5 and people tell me that I am skinny. The standard of skinny has shifted. People who were considered fat 20 years ago are considered normal today. Medically they are far from normal.
I am not discounting the idea of reprogramming the subconscience but eat junk is a conscience act. It is a willful act. Buying junk food and bringing it into your home is also a willful act that is under conscience control. I think that raising a person's level of consciousness has to be part of the equation.
I do think that there is a unconscience component to working out especially when it come to fatigue and perception of work done but again raising the consciousness will help with that. Perhaps "thinking thin" will prompt the conscience mind into telling the person to do the right behaviors. Personally I think a good swift kick in the butt is quite effective. Have you ever seen a fat Marine?
I think people have to think responsibly and act responsibly. Controling one's food lust certainly has some subconscience control but mostly it is a matter of neurological change and that requires discipline and character IMO. Discipline builds character. Disciplined people don't get fat.
I think that a fat person need to strip naked in front of a full length mirror and see a fat person staring back. At that point they need to say to themselves, "This is unacceptable!" After they get back into shape they need to look into that mirror and say. "Never again!"
I was watching Celebrity Fit Club and I thought to myself, "Why are these people being indulged/rewarded simply for doing what they are supposed to do, act responsibly" Rewards are for extraordinary behavior like getting an A on a report card or rescuing a baby from a fire. Should a child be rewarded for making his bed? I think not.
If those people in celebrity fat camp want to lose weight all that need to be done is lock away all the food, and make them excercise. They will lose the weight and they will aslo lose the denial along with their fattitude. I think it is a big mistake to molycoddle people who are exhibiting bad behavior.
The rewards of losing weight and acting responsibly are internal and personal. One reward is kowning that you are in control, the other reward are the health benefits.
IMO one has to be thin before they will think thin. Ceratainly if a fat person/out of control begins to modle the behavior of a lean/incontrol person they will eventually become a lean and incontrol person.
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VYV8
Senior Member
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Posted: 4 Sep 2006 04:15 am |
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"If you take the biggest glutton on the planet and feed him mostly vegetable and lean protien his jaws will get tired before he can consume enough calories to get fat."
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how I managed to lose 45 pounds of fat this year! (Admittedly I also did a fair bit of exercise.)
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Ball
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Posted: 4 Sep 2006 06:53 am |
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VYV8 wrote: "If you take the biggest glutton on the planet and feed him mostly vegetable and lean protien his jaws will get tired before he can consume enough calories to get fat."
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how I managed to lose 45 pounds of fat this year! (Admittedly I also did a fair bit of exercise.)
 Glad to hear it!
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Chiffa
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Posted: 5 Sep 2006 03:17 am |
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Ball wrote:
As to McDonalds, I don't think eating McDonalds "food" will make you fat. A calories is a calorie. I do beleive that there are thing in fast food that help spike hunger cues.
I think people have to think responsibly and act responsibly. Controling one's food lust certainly has some subconscience control but mostly it is a matter of neurological change and that requires discipline and character IMO. Discipline builds character. Disciplined people don't get fat.
If those people in celebrity fat camp want to lose weight all that need to be done is lock away all the food, and make them excercise. They will lose the weight and they will aslo lose the denial along with their fattitude. I think it is a big mistake to molycoddle people who are exhibiting bad behavior.
Although a calorie is a calorie, I think it's important to make smart, healthfull and disciplined choices about *where* your calories come from. There are calories that will not cause the buildup of fat in my arterys and heart.
1 McDonald's quarter pounder w/cheese is 530 calories - There is alot of vegetables or legumes i can eat to make up 530 calories (on fact, i would probably first burst! before i could eat that amount) And it's an amazing 30g of fat?!
But your words about discipline are true, it's exerciseing that discipline in a culture that wants to feed you *indulgent offerings* that's to people difficult (i think)
I watched one celebrity fit-camp where ALL the one lady participant made was excuses for her gain...
She chose to eat the pastrami sandwich and the carrot cake for her lunch, and then turned to the panel and told "If we are not supposed to have it, it should not to us be available in the fit-camp" And it was explained to her "that the panel will not always be with her to discipline her food choices, and in the larger world, yes there will be carrot cakes and pastrami sandwiches - and it MUST be her discipline that exercises and stays her hand from choosing it." And that is the correct *idea* i think.
When you consider, that what many people need is both *education* and *re-programming* to eat in the way that nourishes their body then I think a 'rewards' system for makeing healthfull choices is not so bad.
I don't train my pets to repeat behaviors that i desire with screaming at their bad behaviors, but instead rewarding the desired behaviors (with caresses, skritches and the soft speaking/repeating of their name - I don't like to give food treats for the reward.)
Oh, wait re-reading that it looks like i'm compareing pets to people - but what i meant was really to compare *behaviors training*
Although there maybe be some thing to the screaming human behaviors modification theory, because i remember a lot of screaming directed to our dancers, and look to the militarians, their commanders are always screaming too.
;)
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Peter
Founder of this forum
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Posted: 5 Sep 2006 03:44 am |
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My two cents on "a calorie is a calorie":
http://www.thelegacywebsite.com/tutorial_diet_calorie.html
Peter
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Ball
Restricted Member
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Posted: 5 Sep 2006 05:39 am |
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Chiffa wrote: Ball wrote:
As to McDonalds, I don't think eating McDonalds "food" will make you fat. A calories is a calorie. I do beleive that there are thing in fast food that help spike hunger cues.
I think people have to think responsibly and act responsibly. Controling one's food lust certainly has some subconscience control but mostly it is a matter of neurological change and that requires discipline and character IMO. Discipline builds character. Disciplined people don't get fat.
If those people in celebrity fat camp want to lose weight all that need to be done is lock away all the food, and make them excercise. They will lose the weight and they will aslo lose the denial along with their fattitude. I think it is a big mistake to molycoddle people who are exhibiting bad behavior.
Although a calorie is a calorie, I think it's important to make smart, healthfull and disciplined choices about *where* your calories come from. There are calories that will not cause the buildup of fat in my arterys and heart.
1 McDonald's quarter pounder w/cheese is 530 calories - There is alot of vegetables or legumes i can eat to make up 530 calories (on fact, i would probably first burst! before i could eat that amount) And it's an amazing 30g of fat?!
But your words about discipline are true, it's exerciseing that discipline in a culture that wants to feed you *indulgent offerings* that's to people difficult (i think)
I watched one celebrity fit-camp where ALL the one lady participant made was excuses for her gain...
She chose to eat the pastrami sandwich and the carrot cake for her lunch, and then turned to the panel and told "If we are not supposed to have it, it should not to us be available in the fit-camp" And it was explained to her "that the panel will not always be with her to discipline her food choices, and in the larger world, yes there will be carrot cakes and pastrami sandwiches - and it MUST be her discipline that exercises and stays her hand from choosing it." And that is the correct *idea* i think.
When you consider, that what many people need is both *education* and *re-programming* to eat in the way that nourishes their body then I think a 'rewards' system for makeing healthfull choices is not so bad.
I don't train my pets to repeat behaviors that i desire with screaming at their bad behaviors, but instead rewarding the desired behaviors (with caresses, skritches and the soft speaking/repeating of their name - I don't like to give food treats for the reward.)
Oh, wait re-reading that it looks like i'm compareing pets to people - but what i meant was really to compare *behaviors training*
Although there maybe be some thing to the screaming human behaviors modification theory, because i remember a lot of screaming directed to our dancers, and look to the militarians, their commanders are always screaming too.
;)
A agree that it is best to get calories from complex carbs and good fats but a calorie is simply a measurement of heat/energy.
I think that the Atkins scam really confused people. 2000 cals from fat or 2000 cals from carbs have little or no effect on metabolic rate. Over the long haul the fat cals will cause muscle loss. Atkins basically was trying to tell people that they could defy the laws of thermodynamics as as we know he was full of fat. He was 260 lbs when he died.
People need to draw the line and say that certain food will not ever end up in their mouths. I can afford to eat a box of cookies but I don't. Fatties cannot afford to eat that box of cookies but they do and then they lie about it.
Fat people know what they have to do. The just grasp at scams because they don't want to give up their hedonism. They are in what I call triple denial. They deny that they are heading fo a health crisis. They deny that they over eat and they will not deny themselves any food induced pleasure.
If I ran a fat camp I would not make a game out of it. It would be boot camp with the emphasis on the word boot. I propose that all fat people on Medicaid lose weight and stop smoking. If they don't Medicaid should not pay for any smoking or obesity related health problems. They should be given the option of a manditory fat camp where they are "deprogrammed" and then "reprogramed." I really doubt that they can or will do it on their own.
I think that fat camps should limit food choices as part of reprogramming the palette to crave foods low in fat sugar and salt. However, my approach would be for fat people to come to that conclusion on their own. As part of their indoctrination into responsible eating I would lead them to the correct conclusions regarding food choices. The process has to be incremental. That is how they get fat. Everyday the over indulge a little more and then they chalk up their fat bodies to some mysterious endcrine glitch that the doctors can't identify. Many fat type 2 diabetics blame the diabtes for their obesity and not the other way around. I don;t think we can look at these people on our terms. We see ourselve as logical and honest and we are. They see themselves as logical and honest but we know that they are not. Certainly there are some fat people who freely admit that they overeat. Those are the one IMO who have the greatest chance for success but with out a serious attiude adjustment most of them will fail.
If we consider the fat that is was lack of responsibility and other charater flaws that got Fatty past 250 lbs. I think it is a bit niave to expect that they will have the determination and personal strength to do what they need to do. In general that is, to eat healthy foods and keep the calories 1500 - 2000 for women and 2000 -2500 for men in most cases. For you and I that task is simple but for the obese it is not.
They lack character when it comes to food. I see gluttony as a moral failing. They see it as business as usual. That is the crux of the problem.
There are all sorts of diet books. The diet industry is a multi billion dollar scam IMO. If they were really interested in helping the obese then we would not have an obesity rate that is getting higher every year.
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Peter
Founder of this forum
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Posted: 5 Sep 2006 05:54 am |
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Ball,
You may be right-on with your analysis of what makes people fat and what they need to do about it. But do you think you will reach many fat people referring to them as "fatties"?
I think that you will offend many of them and they will turn their backs on you rather than listening. Then what good is your message?
A strong message can be delivered gently.
Peter
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Ball
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Posted: 5 Sep 2006 07:52 am |
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Peter wrote: Ball,
You may be right-on with your analysis of what makes people fat and what they need to do about it. But do you think you will reach many fat people referring to them as "fatties"?
I think that you will offend many of them and they will turn their backs on you rather than listening. Then what good is your message?
A strong message can be delivered gently.
Peter
In the size acceptance world they refer to themselves as fatties. They where it as a badge of honor.
I don't beleive in being gentle with them. I think that is part of the problem. We do them a disservice if we molycoddle them. The diet industry uses that approach and look at their track record.
Actually, if I ruffle their feathers a bit they will engage me. They will open up with their BS argument and theories and I will return to them the truth that they pretend to be missing.
Before they can solve the problem theyn need to define it and being that they are unable or unwilling to do that I will do it for them. I think in the long run they will thank me for my honesty. They will throw out some phoney moral outrage and they will play the victim but after a while they will get the message and take it to heart.
I am setting them up for a Zen moment. It could be life changing. Everyone deserves a moment of clarity.
I know that people think I'm mean but compared to heart disease, sleep apnea, obesity related birth defects, diabetes ect ect ect I'm really a pretty nice guy. It is the reality of my message that is hard to swallow. Some medicines are easier to take than others.
I will help anyone who asks and I will do it for free. If I can save some lives and improve the quality of some live it would make me happy. There are no higher goals than helping those in need. I think of it as tough love.
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 5 Sep 2006 12:56 pm |
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You may be able to point out a handful of your friends whose lives you have changed (are you?) but I doubt you will get very far with your if you plan on being rude. Be sure to familiarize yourself with the Posting Guidelines, especially rule 3.
Is your personal experience of relevance here? Have you perhaps successfully lost weight yourself (and did you refer to yourself as 'fatty'?), or is it merely observations about others that you're engaged in?
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Peter
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Posted: 5 Sep 2006 04:31 pm |
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Okay, I get it. There is a sector of overweight people that are happy to be fat and defend it, and though I didn't know this... you are saying they call themselves fatties.
I would just add that generally these people will not be posting in this forum. Generally the people posting in this forum are disgusted with themselves and want to lose weight and be slim.
They may be struggling and have trouble accepting some of the truths about why they are overweight, but the want to be thin.
So I suggest that when you talk about fatties, you note that you are referring to people that defend their weight.
One other point... you write, "Before they can solve the problem..."
What problem? If they don't think they have a problem, you certainly have a difficult task ahead of you trying to help them.
Peter
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Ball
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Posted: 5 Sep 2006 05:46 pm |
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Nir wrote: You may be able to point out a handful of your friends whose lives you have changed (are you?) but I doubt you will get very far with your if you plan on being rude. Be sure to familiarize yourself with the Posting Guidelines, especially rule 3.
Is your personal experience of relevance here? Have you perhaps successfully lost weight yourself (and did you refer to yourself as 'fatty'?), or is it merely observations about others that you're engaged in?
I don't believe that I am being rude. I understand that what I am proposing is unpopular with some people but I fail to see what is rude.
I have studied obesity in ways other researchers have not. In a sense I have taken the Mutual of Omaha Wild Animal Kingdom approach in that I have observed the gravitaionally challenged in their natural enviroment. I see what they place in their shoping carts. I see how they behave at the all you can eat buffet. I see how the parent. I see how they avoid physical activity.
I think what people find difficult is that the cause of obesity is behavioral. Whether it is a moral failing or something else is what puts people off. I happen to believe that obesity is primarily a result of sloth and gluttony. I see sloth and gluttony as a moral failing. The diet industry would like to invent another cause for obesity and as we plainly know the diet industry has been a dismal failure. If the diet industry had a clue or actually cared about these people they obesity rate would be falling but as we all know the obesity rate is still on the rise.
I see it as a catch 22 for the diet industry. Let's face it. They are in business to make money. Let's face another fact about the diet industry. They lie! They tell the fat people the lies that they want to hear. The biggest lie they tell fat people is that it is not their fault that they are fat. They also tell them that they need some useless potion or some expensive meal plan ala Jenny Craig , Atkins, South Beach ect.. or some piece of #%@&! exercise equipment.
When was the last time you heard a diet commercial say that weight loss depends on maintaing a calorie deficet?
The only half way valid diet guru out there is Richard Simmons but he too lies to fat people. These people don't need a hug from Richard Simmons. They don't need strokes they need pokes. There is a difference between stern and cruel.
In the Movie and Officer and a Gentleman the dril instructer seemed like a mean SOB but in reality he was giving the pilot candidates a much needed character builder. His treatment of those prospective pilots prepared them to succeed. It also would possibly save their lives. I believe that a similar approach is needed when it come to the chronically obese.
It is human nature to take the path of least resistance but in the case of fat people they develop destructive strategies to always take the paths of least resitance. Food and in particular dangerous food is a path of least resistance and it is also a path to destruction. I am not saying that slothful, gluttony is sin but according to the Judeo/Christian ethic it is. I am not saying that the wages of that sin lead to death. Statistical data says that.
I'm just the messenger and the message is the truth. I know that some people will be offended. It is interesting that it is OK to refer to a muscular man as a roid monkey or a muscle head but when the term fatty is used to describe someone whose adipose tissue is 35% - 70% everybody gets all PC.
I know that what I say will offend some hyper sensitive types but I think if they have a shred of intellectual honesty eventually what I say to them will sink in. They day that they can stand naked infront of a mirror and say to the image staring back, "You are unacceptable me! The behavior that lead to this unacceptable condition stops today." will be the day that they return to a path of responsible behavior and good physical and mental health.
This stuff is not easy to hear but would you rather hear some criticism than the beep beep beep of a heat monitor or the whirr of a breathing machine?
Would you rather feel the temporary sting of some harsh words or the daily sting of your insulin injection?
Would you rather get a bit hot under the collar because of my percieved lack of sensitivity or would you rather feel the burning in your legs and lungs because the elevator is out of order?
Would you rather get red in the face because I #%@&! you off or would you rather be red in the face because you can't fit in a normal chair?
Think about it!
Conduct: Rule #3 All posts must be courteous.
As a courtesy to people who are at risk for illness and premature death I am telling them what they need to know.
Last edited on 5 Sep 2006 06:18 pm by Ball
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Ball
Restricted Member
| Joined: | 28 Aug 2006 |
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Posted: 5 Sep 2006 06:54 pm |
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Peter wrote: Okay, I get it. There is a sector of overweight people that are happy to be fat and defend it, and though I didn't know this... you are saying they call themselves fatties.
The fat acceptance movement embraces obesity as normal. They are a militant cult of mostly fat women and skinny pathertic men who feed them and enjoy being crushed by them. I kid you not. Their matra is that obesity is not caused by gluttony and sloth but rather it is genetic. That is their matra inspite of the truth. Many fat people by into their campaign of misinformation. They buy into their anti diet anti health garbage. Their motto is "embrace the fat."
I would just add that generally these people will not be posting in this forum. Generally the people posting in this forum are disgusted with themselves and want to lose weight and be slim.
I'm a love the sinner hate the sin kinda guy. People should not ever be disgusted with self. They need to be disgusted by the behavior that leads to their unacceptable condition. It is an important distinction.
They may be struggling and have trouble accepting some of the truths about why they are overweight, but the want to be thin.
I want to be a millionaire but inorder to make that happen I have to learn how to do it but I don;t know if I have what it takes and I don;t know if in the long run doing what it take would be worth it. In the case of obesity it's a no brainer. Ofcourse it is worth being healthy.
So I suggest that when you talk about fatties, you note that you are referring to people that defend their weight.
OK but what should I call them. What about gravitaionally challenged? LOL
One other point... you write, "Before they can solve the problem..."
What problem? If they don't think they have a problem, you certainly have a difficult task ahead of you trying to help them.
They know they have a problem. They have many problems. #%@&! they struggle with thing that normal people take for granted. If I were to identify their biggest problem it is their seach for an easy fix. One must question their intellect and judgement being that we have a multi billion dollar diet industry, multi Trillion dollar Junk food industry, and a growing obesity epidemic all at the same time.
People of fat in some way are being exploited but that is to be expected in a free capilitalist society. They all have a herd mentality that is easy for some money grubber to exploit. Look at how stup[id they act. They buy those awuful Jenny Craig meals at a premium price when they can buy the same thing called Lean Cuisine if they are too lazy to cook. Jenny Craig is smart. The easiest thing to sell to a person of fat is "yummy" fast food. It is ingenious. You keep reinforcing the behaviors and fattitude that keeps them fat. You tell them that they NEED Jenny's slop food and they the are too stupid to read a lable or prepare a proper meal on their own. That keep them in denial and it reinforces their fattitude. The dismal success rate shows that the diet industry is a scam.
The diet industry programs are designed to fail. I don;t blame the Diet industry because going to the market and buying wholesome food and preparing it is not rocket science but people of fat don't do that. They want sombody to cook their meals for them and choose the ingredient for them. They act like cattle and the diet industry sees them as cattle.
Peter
Last edited on 5 Sep 2006 07:03 pm by Ball
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Queenstina24
New Member
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Posted: 5 Sep 2006 08:55 pm |
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| First of all I would like to point out that this web site is suppose to be encouraging and I dont find that on here when people refer to us people that are over weight as "fatties" have you ever considered that we do know the truth and those words are hurtful? I use to have an eating disorder and believe me such harsh words could CAUSE someone to have an eating disoder, so please have a heart! I am conquering my weight, Thank you!
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Scoobees
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 5 Sep 2006 10:49 pm |
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I also am offended. We are here on this board to support one another. We obviously know we have a problem and are all 'works in progress'...we KNOW what to do and are here to encourage each other...not 'cattle' (as Ball suggests) in the diet industry following some gimicky idea. We don't need you to call us fat or fatties. And I most certainly do not wear this as a badge of honor as you said. Why on earth would you think your rudeness would inspire someone to lose weight? You insinuate overweight people are also 'stupid'. What a load of #%@&!. Looking at your spelling and grammatical errors...Hmmm...just wondering who is the stupid one. Why not try to take it down a notch or dozen - you may reach a person or two.
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Ball
Restricted Member
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Posted: 5 Sep 2006 11:18 pm |
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Queenstina24 wrote: First of all I would like to point out that this web site is suppose to be encouraging and I dont find that on here when people refer to us people that are over weight as "fatties" have you ever considered that we do know the truth and those words are hurtful? I use to have an eating disorder and believe me such harsh words could CAUSE someone to have an eating disoder, so please have a heart! I am conquering my weight, Thank you!
Hey, I could blow sunshine up your butt and clap for you everytime you lose a pound but in the long run that rarely works. You don;t need encouragement from anyone but yourself.
As to the term fatty, if you are overweight you certainly are not a skinny. WOuld you prefer the term gravitationally challenged? Does that better fit your sensibilities?.
If you knew the whole truth and accepted it you would not be fat. As to being hurt, like they say truth hurts.
Eating disorder is a made up word that psychologists use to make their BS sound legit. It is a catch all phrase that describes gluttony, puking and starving.
I do have a heart. In fact my heart works quite well because I do not place undo stress upon it by being unfit and fat..
Words cannot cause an eating disorder. Poor parenting and bad behavior cause ED. Shallowness causes anorexia and if left untreated it becomes neurologicval in nature. The same is true for people of fat.
I could make sure you lose weight. I could lock you up in a cell and control your food. If you need to conquer anything it is your gluttony but before you can do that you have to acknowledge it for what it is. Beleive me you did not get fat by being in control of your food lust.
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Scoobees
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 5 Sep 2006 11:26 pm |
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You're barking up the wrong tree Ball...or should I say board. We ALREADY KNOW the truth, have accepted and acknowledged everything...and are on our weight loss journeys now. Perhaps you should post on some sort of 'fatty' haters board or something...don't rain on our parades here. I don't need sunshine blown up my butt for every pound I lose - but it's nice to get a 'pat on the back' here from time to time and a congrats. And if anyone needs locked up in that cell you mentioned...
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Peter
Founder of this forum
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Posted: 5 Sep 2006 11:43 pm |
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Ball wrote: Peter wrote: So I suggest that when you talk about fatties, you note that you are referring to people that defend their weight.
OK but what should I call them. What about gravitaionally challenged? LOL
I don' think it will matter what you call them. I don't think they will stay around to listen to you.
I am very impressed with your viewpoint on the causes of obesity, but I don't see you helping many people. I hope you prove me wrong.
Peter
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Ball
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Posted: 6 Sep 2006 12:09 am |
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Scoobees wrote: I also am offended. We are here on this board to support one another. We obviously know we have a problem and are all 'works in progress'...we KNOW what to do and are here to encourage each other...not 'cattle' (as Ball suggests) in the diet industry following some gimicky idea. We don't need you to call us fat or fatties. And I most certainly do not wear this as a badge of honor as you said. Why on earth would you think your rudeness would inspire someone to lose weight? You insinuate overweight people are also 'stupid'. What a load of #%@&!. Looking at your spelling and grammatical errors...Hmmm...just wondering who is the stupid one. Why not try to take it down a notch or dozen - you may reach a person or two.
First off before you respond you should read what I have written first.
If you look at the behavior of most fat people there most definately is a herd mentality at work and it is not so much like a herd of cattle as much as it is like a herd of hungry lemmings chasing the next yummy diet scam over a cliff.
You are calling me rude when I am not rude. If you want to see rudeness all you need do is observe fat people at a buffet. They are sooooo uncouth!
As to me thinking that fat people are not as bright as normal people, I sure I can provide data supporting that view. I don't think noraml people are that much smarter but it is true that the higher one's educational level the less likely they are to be obese. I even have stats regarding religion and obesity. In the US Jews are the leanest. They also have more advanced degrees than any other groups. Catholics come in second for leaness and education along with Episcopalians and the fattest and the least educated are Southern Baptists and other Christian fundementalists. They also have the highest divorce rates, incest rates and they commit the most crime.
See what I mean? I guess Dr Falwell forgot that sloth and gluttony are 2 of the 7 deadly sins. He also seems to have forgotten that his Bible says the body is and temple for the holy spirit and that the body is on loan from God and that we are its stewards.
I have already reached people. You are responding and you are getting a lesson in humility. You also know that I am right but your fattitude will not let you admit. The reason what I am saying bothers you is because you know that I'm right and you know that fit men and women like me all see it the way I see it.
As to my typos, I have vision problems but thank you for asking.
If you are wondering who the brightest one is all I can tell you that I have an athletic build and I really don't have to work at it because I don't graze on junk food all day long and I move. That may not make me brighter than you but I do believe it makes me more responsible than you and possibly a better citizen and role model.
As to IQ, I took an online test that says I'm 129 and another that says I'm 135. While I am not the sharpest cheddar I am in the fairly high percentile for adult males my age being that 100 is average for white males. If I were Asian my percentile would be lower because their average is 106 and come to think of you rarely see many fat Aisians. Hmmmm!
As to support, fat people commiserating on a message board is not support. All you will do is reinforce wrong thinking and promote misinformation. It's like the blind leading the blind. How smart is that?
If you would like real counseling PM me. All attacking me will do is result in me exploding your illusions. Either way you will win.
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Scoobees
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 6 Sep 2006 12:35 am |
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OMG...You actually think you gave me a lesson in humility???? I'm sorry, but you're the one with the illusions. And I will gladly match my degrees with yours anyday, but that's not even what this is about. If you've actually perused this board you would know there is no commiserating here...only support, information, and help. Read. I certainly don't want your counseling - thank you very much...what qualifies you to even offer it?
I'm done trading jabs here with you Ball. If your intention was to rile me - it worked. If your intention was to help anyone - I think you've missed the boat. No disrespect intended whatsoever. Goodbye.
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Queenstina24
New Member
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Posted: 6 Sep 2006 12:43 am |
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Mr Ball, I wont allow u to anger me. You don't have one clue about who I am or what I stand for. As for being a fatty, well by the grace of God I am learning to get back into a very healthy life style. Just for a pointer- thin people have sicknesses also, whether it be an illness, drugs, or cigerrettes. No one is perfect including you. Point your finger all you want- just remember that we are all equal in Gods eyes, and we all faulter.
**As for those who have supported me on this wonderful website God Bless you and I hope to continue on hearing about your success!!**
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Ball
Restricted Member
| Joined: | 28 Aug 2006 |
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Posted: 6 Sep 2006 02:45 am |
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Scoobees wrote: OMG...You actually think you gave me a lesson in humility???? I'm sorry, but you're the one with the illusions. And I will gladly match my degrees with yours anyday, but that's not even what this is about. If you've actually perused this board you would know there is no commiserating here...only support, information, and help. Read. I certainly don't want your counseling - thank you very much...what qualifies you to even offer it?
I'm done trading jabs here with you Ball. If your intention was to rile me - it worked. If your intention was to help anyone - I think you've missed the boat. No disrespect intended whatsoever. Goodbye.
Yes I gave you an object lesson but it did not sink in. Oh well (rolls eyes)
As to me counseling you the offer still holds.
I don't take your lashing out personally. As to my qualifications I am a researcher. I am member of ASHRAE. I am a configurations engineer. I design refrigeration systems and heating sytems. I am currently working with combined loop systems using modern Stirling engines. I also consult with combustion engineers on a regular basis.
I was one of the few people to score 100% on every phase of the EPA exam. I also developed a more reliable thermostatic expansion valving scheme. What have you done lately?
I have also studied new ways to use waste heat and I am working on a fan cycling system for cooling towers among other things.
It was not my intention to ruffle your feather per se but it was my intention to challenge the thinking process of the terminally obese and hopefully adjust their attitudes.
You are fat because of what is between your ears. People like Atkins don't hold the answer for people like you. Infact they want you to remain ignorant. I'm sorry but if you are fat you are ignorant. You can continue your prideful ways and put forth stupid theories as to why you are fat or you can face the fact thast you eat to much and move too little. At that point I can help you. Like I said, the offer still stands.
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Ball
Restricted Member
| Joined: | 28 Aug 2006 |
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Posted: 6 Sep 2006 02:54 am |
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Queenstina24 wrote: Mr Ball, I wont allow u to anger me. You don't have one clue about who I am or what I stand for. As for being a fatty, well by the grace of God I am learning to get back into a very healthy life style. Just for a pointer- thin people have sicknesses also, whether it be an illness, drugs, or cigerrettes. No one is perfect including you. Point your finger all you want- just remember that we are all equal in Gods eyes, and we all faulter.
**As for those who have supported me on this wonderful website God Bless you and I hope to continue on hearing about your success!!**
If I had not angered you you would have not responded.
Your right normal people get sicke but usually they are not the cause of that sickness. Fat people are the cause of their sickness.
Inspite of the medical consequences fat people continue their gormandizing ways. They make very feeble efforts to control their unbridled food lust and they have every excuse in the book. When they are not over eating they are inventing theories that defy all science in order to explain their condition and justify their behavior. You know that is true. Why not admit it?
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 6 Sep 2006 09:35 am |
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Ball, you are repeating yourself. I guess you have stated all your opinions already.
Your tactics of making others angry are working. I don't find your presence welcome. As it happens I don't make such decisions around here so you may spread your hate here for a little while longer.
Your ideas about what the Diet & Weight Loss Forums are for is flawed. Take a clue from the name - these are forums about diet and weight loss. Not about people who are happy to be overweight. Weight loss is most effective if it is gradual, so you could be obese and losing and on the right track. Why don't you go somewhere which is actualy populated by the happy-to-be-overweight people you wish to address? Have you had problems finding them?
If you have never been overweight and you don't even have to work at it, perhaps you are genetically gifted and are not the right person to dispense advice. You claim elsewhere to know more about weight-loss than anyone on these forums. All I've seen so far is a reference to Dr Ornish's vegeterian diet (did it work for you?). Your qualifications relate to engineering and you (apparently) have no personal experience of weight loss. All you have is your opinions.
You appear to be confusing your hate of the overweight with your hate of the diet industry. Your conclusion that diets do not work seems to be based on your observations of those people who are overweight by choice and therefore unlikely to be following a diet.
Your attitude to those with eating disorders is appaling and shows ignorance. Just because I've been a normal weight for 2.5 years, have a lean physique and have aquired some useful information about weight loss and healthy eating along my journey does not mean that I am not affected!
Having opinions is one thing.
The credential that is most missing is a person who you have actually helped.
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Ball
Restricted Member
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Posted: 6 Sep 2006 06:25 pm |
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Nir wrote: Ball, you are repeating yourself. I guess you have stated all your opinions already.
Your tactics of making others angry are working. I don't find your presence welcome. As it happens I don't make such decisions around here so you may spread your hate here for a little while longer.
Your ideas about what the Diet & Weight Loss Forums are for is flawed. Take a clue from the name - these are forums about diet and weight loss. Not about people who are happy to be overweight. Weight loss is most effective if it is gradual, so you could be obese and losing and on the right track. Why don't you go somewhere which is actualy populated by the happy-to-be-overweight people you wish to address? Have you had problems finding them?
If you have never been overweight and you don't even have to work at it, perhaps you are genetically gifted and are not the right person to dispense advice. You claim elsewhere to know more about weight-loss than anyone on these forums. All I've seen so far is a reference to Dr Ornish's vegeterian diet (did it work for you?). Your qualifications relate to engineering and you (apparently) have no personal experience of weight loss. All you have is your opinions.
You appear to be confusing your hate of the overweight with your hate of the diet industry. Your conclusion that diets do not work seems to be based on your observations of those people who are overweight by choice and therefore unlikely to be following a diet.
Your attitude to those with eating disorders is appaling and shows ignorance. Just because I've been a normal weight for 2.5 years, have a lean physique and have aquired some useful information about weight loss and healthy eating along my journey does not mean that I am not affected!
Having opinions is one thing.
The credential that is most missing is a person who you have actually helped.
Perhaps you are not reading carefully enough or perhaps what I am saying is hitting a little too close to home. Perhaps it is both. At any rate you are being disengenuous when you say I am saying people here are part of the fat acceptance movement. I wwas merely explianing that for amy fat people the term "fatty" is not a projorative. I think you know that but you are trying to distort reality.
As to my opinions, I have given very few opinions but I have put forth quite a few inconvenient truths.
As to my hate, I am not a hater. There is hate going on here and that hate is the hating of reality. A couple for fat girls got upset because I said that boys find fat girls unattractive. That is not hateful it is truthful. Men are grossed out by fat women. That is not an opinion it is a fact. Nature made us that way.
As to the purpose of diet and weightloss forums I would think that the purpose would be finding the stumbling blocks that cause people to remain fat, gluttnous and slothful and eliminating those stumbling blocks. Apparently you think ithe forums are for reinfocring the same behavioral patterns and trying the same failed strtegies for for sustained weighless that have led to 65% of Americans being fat. slothful and gluttonous.
The worst person to gain counsel from for weightloss is another persomn who suffers from gluttony and sloth. It is very clear to people like me. We stay fit because we are not selfdelsuional. We tell it like it is to ourselves and to others. People like me have the courage and the moral authority to tell it like it is. We are not nor have we been slothful. gluttonous and obese. The reason that people like me are not slothful. gluttonous and obese is because we take responsibility for our actions. I am not prepared to say that people like me are better morally than people like you but it certainly looks that way. Does it not?
I have helped many people stop their gluttony and ammend their lives. Before you pass judgement on me again take a close look at yourself. If you are fat you are putting your lust for food above all else. It is more important than your loved ones. It is more important to you than your good citizenship. It is more important to you than your continued good health.
If you want to throw stone at me first you had better get some stones first. You also had better be a pretty good aim because I present a very small target.
THE DIET INDUSTRY
They know suckers when they see them. They exist because there are sooooo many fat people. Fat people are easy to exploit. If I were to fleece a group of people I too would pick a group of easily led weak willed lemmings. The diet industry is unethical and so are most corporations. What else is new?
"Eating disorders"
Give me a break! Suddenly in the past 30 years 65% of Americans mysteriously developed and eating disorder??? Again, GIVE ME A BREAK!
65% of Americans are hedonistic lazy gluttons. They have a moral disorder. The have no eating disorder. They are really good at shoving jusnk into their pie holes.
Why do you think it's so difficult for 65% of Americans to take in the corect amount of calories. I know why and I have explained it. Now let's hear your theory.
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Skipperdox
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 6 Sep 2006 11:02 pm |
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Hello, Ball
I find it interesting that you lump all diet programs into a pathetic mass with no regard for programs that work. These are programs that teach healthy changes, ENCOURAGE making healthy choices, SUPPORT its members, and don't require ANY purchase of prepackaged foods, gadgets, or books.
Since you so kindly want to help us, how do you expect us to get thin? Do you have a program? Besides "consuming less than we burn", how do you propose we lose the weight? What do you eat? Do you exercise? Name calling and accusations can only take us so far. Say your campaign actually worked; we have realized the error of our ways. Since we're all stupid fatties, you need to give more information about how we go about eating right. (BTW my IQ is 142...being open-minded counts on IQ tests...it indicates an ability to accept and learn new information...HA!)
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 7 Sep 2006 01:07 am |
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I do think that you are correct that the majority of overweight people actually do not care about their excess weight (prioritising the hedonistic pleasure of food and eating over health, and simply pretending that their weight is not a problem). Simply put, there are more overweight and obese people than ever, because it has become more socially acceptable for them to so be.
I do not think that these people present evidence that diets don't work. The majority of these people do not go on diets. Why would they?
The people who do go on diets are a minority of individuals who actually wish to lose weight. (It is our duty to educate them about the flaws of 'diets' (crash diets, yo-yo dieting...) and the advantage of lifestyle changes.)
The worst person to gain counsel from for weightloss is another person who suffers from gluttony and sloth.
I have never smoked, so I don't think I am in a position to effectively give advice on how to quit. I'll leave that to someone who has personally achieved this.
Not only are you just "looking in" from the outside, as far as being able to appreciate gluttony/sloth, there is also the possibility that you are genetically gifted (ectomorph or mesomorph, with a small or non-existent endomorph component) and further unable to appreciate the challenge ahead of those motivated to get into shape.
I'm definitely part-endomorph. [I thank my lucky stars that in 8 years of neglect in my twenties (overeating and no activity) I only hovered in overweight territory - by right I should have been obese.]
The reason that people like me are not slothful. gluttonous and obese is because we take responsibility for our actions
Another perspective for you: I have a friend who finds it very easy to stay slim, because he has no interest in food. He uses food to nourish himself, that's all. Perhaps you are like that. It takes no self-control on your part to not over-eat because you lack the drive to begin with. Does that ring true?
Why do you think it's so difficult for 65% of Americans to take in the corect amount of calories. let's hear your theory.
To restate: I agree with your theory that almost all of those overweight people are happy to remain overweight and value their experiences with junk food more than their health. I agree with your opinion, which might indeed be fact. I disagree with your bad attitude and conduct. Have I made myself clear?
take a close look at yourself. If you are fat
Can you not read? You quoted my text, where I said "I've been a normal weight for 2.5 years". Let me put it another way: during that time my BMI has varied, yet stayed in the range (19.1 .. 22.1), which is a subset of the 'normal' (18.5 .. 24.9) range. My body fat has ranged 8%..15% during this time. Is that clear enough for you or do I need to state it some other way?
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Ball
Restricted Member
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Posted: 7 Sep 2006 02:07 am |
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Skipperdox wrote: Hello, Ball
I find it interesting that you lump all diet programs into a pathetic mass with no regard for programs that work. These are programs that teach healthy changes, ENCOURAGE making healthy choices, SUPPORT its members, and don't require ANY purchase of prepackaged foods, gadgets, or books.
I just look at the growing obesity epidemic. That reality tells me that there are no programs that are working because if there were the obesity rate would be coming down not going up up up.
Since you so kindly want to help us, how do you expect us to get thin? Do you have a program? Yes! Besides "consuming less than we burn", how do you propose we lose the weight? Except for liposuction there is no other way to lose weight. What do you eat? Healthy food in the correct amount. Do you exercise? Yes! Name calling and accusations can only take us so far. SHow me where I called anyone here a bad name. Say your campaign actually worked; we have realized the error of our ways. Since we're all stupid fatties, (You said it not me) you need to give more information about how we go about eating right. (BTW my IQ is 142 in your dreams...being open-minded counts on IQ tests...it indicates an ability to accept and learn new information...HA!) If you have an IQ of 142 why are you unable to grasp the fact that the only way to lose weight is to burn more calories than you consume? Let's see if you understand this analogy. Let's say that you own a car and that car runs on gasoline. The car has a special expanding gas tank much like your belly. Let's say you drive that car 10 miles a day and it requires one gallon of gasoline to do that but you put 2 gallons of gasoline in that car's tank everyday. What is going to happen to that expanding gas tank?
Let's say that instead of driving 10 miles a day you drive 20. Will the gas tank get A. Bigger
B Smaller
C. Stay the same.
Let's say that you drive 20 miles a day but you put in only one gallon of gasoline. what would happen to the expanding tank then?
I would think that a person with an IQ of 75 could grasp the above concept. Are you certain that your IQ exceeds 75?
Skippy, if you want me to counsel you publicly so that others can benefit from my work with you I would be glad to help you. If you would like to do it PM I will do it that way too.
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Ball
Restricted Member
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Posted: 7 Sep 2006 02:46 am |
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Nir wrote: I do think that you are correct that the majority of overweight people actually do not care about their excess weight (prioritising the hedonistic pleasure of food and eating over health, and simply pretending that their weight is not a problem). Simply put, there are more overweight and obese people than ever, because it has become more socially acceptable for them to so be.
30 years ago I would have been considered slightly husky. Now people tell me I'm skinny. I'm the correct weight for someone my height.
If people's priorities were health, fitness and responisbility we would not be the fattest nation on earth.
I do not think that these people present evidence that diets don't work. The majority of these people do not go on diets. Why would they?
People don't really go on weightloss diets. Atleast not for very long. They buy into the hype because it sounds sooooo easy. It is not easy but it is not difficult if they know what they are doing and if they were tough enough. Unfortunately gluttony is about decadent self indugence or as I like to call it FATTITUDE.
Before they can ever lose the fat they need to lose the FATTITUDE! Cutting fat is simple. All one need to do is eat less and excercise more but the FATTITUDE prevents most fat people from doing that. My program gets rid of the fattitude.
The people who do go on diets are a minority of individuals who actually wish to lose weight. (It is our duty to educate them about the flaws of 'diets' (crash diets, yo-yo dieting...) and the advantage of lifestyle changes.)
They know what they need to do. The just won't do it. Again, it is the fattitude at work. Lose the fattitude. Lose the fat.
The worst person to gain counsel from for weightloss is another person who suffers from gluttony and sloth.
I have never smoked, so I don't think I am in a position to effectively give advice on how to quit. I'll leave that to someone who has personally achieved this.
Most doctors have never had cancer but the are the ones you go to to get it cured. My advice for fat people is to watch what normal people do and then do it or they can watch what fat people do and then don't do it.
Not only are you just "looking in" from the outside, as far as being able to appreciate gluttony/sloth, there is also the possibility that you are genetically gifted (ectomorph or mesomorph, with a small or non-existent endomorph component) and further unable to appreciate the challenge ahead of those motivated to get into shape.
Here come the genetic excuses! All that genetic clap trap is trumped by the 2nd law of thermodymanics. Body type are not the cause. There are fat ectomorphs. Where fat get stored is controled by genes. The amount of stored fat is controled by how much food you take in and how much you burn. Bringing up somata types only give the fat people another pseudo scientific excuse to pig out and self delude.
I am superior to most people in many ways but my metabolic function is the same as most people's. I don't credit genes with the fact that I am not fat. I had good looking parents. Both my grand fathers were manly men.
How do you motivate a self indulgent glutton? I think they need a boot in the butt. They need some Marine Corps style boot camp, not just for weightloss but the need to build character. A boot camp is what is needed for these people.
I'm definitely part-endomorph. [I thank my lucky stars that in 8 years of neglect in my twenties (overeating and no activity) I only hovered in overweight territory - by right I should have been obese.]
Again, thermodynamic law trumps that misinformation. Noone is genetically progammed to be fat. Get that #%@&! out of your head.
The reason that people like me are not slothful. gluttonous and obese is because we take responsibility for our actions
Another perspective for you: I have a friend who finds it very easy to stay slim, because he has no interest in food. He uses food to nourish himself, that's all. Perhaps you are like that. It takes no self-control on your part to not over-eat because you lack the drive to begin with. Does that ring true?
Maybe but I enjoy food. many years ago I found out how dangerous junk food was so I stopped completely. No the though of it makes me sick but before I loved it.
Why do you think it's so difficult for 65% of Americans to take in the corect amount of calories. let's hear your theory.
To restate: I agree with your theory that almost all of those overweight people are happy to remain overweight and value their experiences with junk food more than their health. I agree with your opinion, which might indeed be fact. I disagree with your bad attitude and conduct. Have I made myself clear?
My attitude in intense and my conduct is that of an honest and passionate man who tells it like it is.
take a close look at yourself. If you are fat
Can you not read? You quoted my text, where I said "I've been a normal weight for 2.5 years". Let me put it another way: during that time my BMI has varied, yet stayed in the range (19.1 .. 22.1), which is a subset of the 'normal' (18.5 .. 24.9) range. My body fat has ranged 8%..15% during this time. Is that clear enough for you or do I need to state it some other way?
You still have hung onto some fattitude. You still sound like a fat person.
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 7 Sep 2006 06:22 am |
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Ball wrote: Nir wrote:
take a close look at yourself. If you are fat
Can you not read? You quoted my text, where I said "I've been a normal weight for 2.5 years". Let me put it another way: during that time my BMI has varied, yet stayed in the range (19.1 .. 22.1), which is a subset of the 'normal' (18.5 .. 24.9) range. My body fat has ranged 8%..15% during this time. Is that clear enough for you or do I need to state it some other way?
You still have hung onto some fattitude. You still sound like a fat person.
Excuse me? this is how you have defined your own term, above:
gluttony is about decadent self indugence or as I like to call it FATTITUDE.
What exactly are you trying to say? Are you trying to make a point here, or are you trying to be offensive? (do I really need to remind you again that this forum has rules?)
I just look at the growing obesity epidemic. That reality tells me that there are no programs that are working because if there were the obesity rate would be coming down not going up up up.
Ball, your logic is pathetic. Allow me to demonstrate this for you:
Creating a calorie deficit by eating less and exercising more simply does not work. Just look at the growing obesity epidemic. The reality tells "me" that it isn't working because if it was the obesity rate would be coming don not going up.
Your logic is pathetic (again). It amounts to saying: "there exist obese people", "there exist diets", "therefore diets don't help obese people". What is missing here are numbers. How many obese people are dieting? How many are not dieting? What is so hard for you to grasp here?
To further spell it out for you: creating a calorie deficit by eating less and exercising more does work, but you wouldn't know it looking at the majority of obese people, because they are not following this common-sense approach. I thought that with your Engineering background you might be up to grasping such basic logic.
Please stop using the 65% of Americans who are overweight as examples - unless they are relevant examples.
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VYV8
Senior Member
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Posted: 7 Sep 2006 06:31 am |
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I was reading all these posts from the last few days, and a couple of ideas occurred to me:
1) being negative and shouting at people doesn't really work. They aren't suddenly going to go "well gosh you're right, I'd better change my life". Instead, taking a more motivational and positive approach is often more helpful.
2) Ball clearly has some stuff to say - great! How about we keep the opinionated stuff to the thread started by Ball and try to keep the negatives away from other discussions.
Just my thoughts...
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Ball
Restricted Member
| Joined: | 28 Aug 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 37 |
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Posted: 7 Sep 2006 08:10 am |
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Nir wrote: Ball wrote: Nir wrote:
take a close look at yourself. If you are fat
Can you not read? You quoted my text, where I said "I've been a normal weight for 2.5 years". Let me put it another way: during that time my BMI has varied, yet stayed in the range (19.1 .. 22.1), which is a subset of the 'normal' (18.5 .. 24.9) range. My body fat has ranged 8%..15% during this time. Is that clear enough for you or do I need to state it some other way?
You still have hung onto some fattitude. You still sound like a fat person.
Excuse me? this is how you have defined your own term, above:
That is only part of fattitude. Excuses and lack immunity to reality are another part of it. You still have fattitude.
gluttony is about decadent self indugence or as I like to call it FATTITUDE.
What exactly are you trying to say? Are you trying to make a point here, or are you trying to be offensive? (do I really need to remind you again that this forum has rules?)
I'm simply talking about the gluttony and sloth epidemic.
I just look at the growing obesity epidemic. That reality tells me that there are no programs that are working because if there were the obesity rate would be coming down not going up up up.
Ball, your logic is pathetic. Allow me to demonstrate this for you:
Creating a calorie deficit by eating less and exercising more simply does not work. Just look at the growing obesity epidemic. The reality tells "me" that it isn't working because if it was the obesity rate would be coming don not going up.
OK then you tell me what would happen if I placed a 400 pound lummox in a jail cell and fed him 2000 calories a day and made forced him to burn 500 cals every day. You tell me what the outcome would be and explain the thermodynamics regarrding the thermo efficiency of fat people. Tell us all how fat people are able to defy the 2nd law as you are implying.
Your logic is pathetic (again). It amounts to saying: "there exist obese people", "there exist diets", "therefore diets don't help obese people". What is missing here are numbers. How many obese people are dieting? How many are not dieting? What is so hard for you to grasp here?
I think most of what I said went over your head. I think it is safe to assume that somebody is buying into the multi billion dollar diet fraud industry. Atkins has been hugely successful and still the obesity rate is climbing. The Atkins sacam alone netted BILLIONS. Somebody bough his products to lose weight. There has been no success. People are just getting fatter. You simply cannot or you are pretending not to make the leap needed to understand some so simple. Then again you have fattitude. You are playing the fatty illogic game because reality causes you too much cognitive dissonance.
To further spell it out for you: creating a calorie deficit by eating less and exercising more does work, but you wouldn't know it looking at the majority of obese people, because they are not following this common-sense approach. I thought that with your Engineering background you might be up to grasping such basic logic.
Fat people lie just like you are lying now. As to fast people using a common sense approach they are not capable of recognizing common sense. If they had an ounce of sense they would not be sedentary eating machines that get fatter and fatter and fatter and fatter. All they do is eat eat eat.
Please stop using the 65% of Americans who are overweight as examples - unless they are relevant examples.
Is that reality too much for you? 65% of American being obese gluttons proves many many many points. Gluttony in the US is an undeniable fact as proven by its fat demographics.
The fact that 65% of Americans favorite hobby is pigging out eevery day is very relavant to the discussion.
People like you would like to offer some mysterious solution for gluttons. You will tell them that their deplorable condition is not their fault because they have bad genes or a endomorphic body type and because they love food above all else they will believe your lies because they can then sat to everyone "see it's not my fault'.
Because they lack the character required to act responsibly they will not think to ask the diet charteltons why 40 years ago only about 8% of people were fat and ther were almost no obese or morbidly obese.
You have only been a non glutton for 2 years. Big deal! You are so close to reverting back to your glutonous behavior that right now you are dreaming about a chocolate cake. Your fattitude is gonna get you.
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 7 Sep 2006 12:51 pm |
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- You frequently misunderstand me. I believe you do so delieberately.
- You cannot call me fat, so you say I have fattitude
- You are a troll (look it up if you don't know what it means in this context)
Have some cookies and ice-cream. 
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makundai
New Member
| Joined: | 14 Aug 2006 |
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| Posts: | 42 |
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Posted: 7 Sep 2006 01:40 pm |
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| Why do you guys bother replying this nerd, he clearly has issues. He might not be fat(kindly used) but his attitude needs to go on a diet. Whats your reply to that Mr Ball? Infact do not bother, it will not change who I am.
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Peter
Founder of this forum
| Joined: | 24 May 2005 |
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| Posts: | 4180 |
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Posted: 7 Sep 2006 03:52 pm |
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VYV8,
I just thought of the same idea when I was out watering the yard. From now on I will allow people to post strong opinions and even insult fat people or fatties in general in topics they start themselves.
I will not allow people to post rude comments or use rude names that apply to other forum members in particular, or to start rude, argumentative discussions in topics started by others. That way someone can't clutter the forums with such discussions.
Makundai,
I couldn't agree more. Ball has only been so successful in stirring things up because others have "taken the bait."
Though I must say that in many cases they were coming to the defense of other forum members. I can't be too critical of someone for doing that.
Peter
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Peter
Founder of this forum
| Joined: | 24 May 2005 |
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| Posts: | 4180 |
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Posted: 7 Sep 2006 04:16 pm |
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About Ball,
Ball wrote me a very nice note explaining once again how he believes he can help people by shocking them into believing the truth about their weight problem. I believe he has some very good ideas, and is very sincere.
He said that he would start one new topic for discussion of his viewpoints, and stop badgering others in other topics.
(These are my words, I am not quoting him.)
Well, he did, and though it was not directed at anyone in particular or anyone in general, his post contained a disgusting phrase. That did it for me.
I deleted the post and terminated his membership in the forum.
I do not want the practice of picking who can and can't be a member to become commonplace. I want the forums to be very open to all. But I think I have learned a lot about how to handle such people in the forum and hope to do better in the future.
Lastly, I am exhausted from this experience and hope that there will not be too much follow-up discussion. I think everyone has pretty much expressed their feelings already.
Peter
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clarinetgurl
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 7 Sep 2006 10:54 pm |
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Nir wrote: Have some cookies and ice-cream.
Lol!!
Is that what you call an allusion?
clarinetgurl
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 23 Jun 2011 03:23 pm |
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This was an interesting topic to revisit almost 5 years later. I'm in complete agreement with everything I wrote back then. Surprisingly I also agree with more of what 'Ball' wrote as compared with how I felt at the time.
It is also nice to be able to reflect that I've now been a healthy weight for the last 7.5 years or so.
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