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Sylphide
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Aug 2006 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 247 |
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Posted: 21 Aug 2011 12:52 pm |
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Don't misunderstand, I have nothing against the, "tough love," approach. I know it's the motivator that some people need. It just doesn't work for me, in fact, it brings out the rebel in me and has the opposite of the desired effect. Just the other day, I was at an, "all you can eat," restaurant, happily helping myself to a large piece of chocolate cake when the young stranger next to me looked me up and down with a sneer and a head shake. I held eye contact long enough to raise my eyebrows in an, "Oh yeah?" expression while I stepped sideways to the ice cream machine and covered my cake in soft serve vanilla. Yum! He had no way of knowing that I was giving myself a rare treat after sticking to a strict diet for four months, but even if I ate cake on a daily basis, it was none of his business.
There's no such thing as side stream calories. Any increase in national health costs is offset by the chance that I'll die earlier than he does and save a fortune in social security funds. How I feed myself is absolutely no one else's business with the exception of my doctor.
So, if you are one of those who don't respond well to harsh judgments from others about what is actually nothing more than a bad health habit, then this thread is for you.
I knowthere are regulars on this board who are wonderful at encouraging others and I invite you to share a few words here.
For now, I would just like to remind all of you that you are so much more than the number on your scale. If you never lose another pound you will still be a valuable person with many fine qualities to contribute.
If you do decide, for yourself, that now is a good time to lose a few pounds, rest assured that it is completely within your own power to do so. The urge to eat is, by nature, a very strong one, without it we die, but you are much stronger than any of your urges and you are capable of giving your body only the nutrition it needs and no more, until you reach your desired weight.
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 21 Aug 2011 05:23 pm |
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| Let me be a devil's advocate and ask how you'd feel if the Tough Love forum disappeared as if by a puff of magic. Would you miss it?
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Tankgirl
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: 22 Aug 2011 03:59 am |
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I definitely think tough love has it's place, but I can agree it's not for everyone. The Drill Sargent received undesirable results out of "Private Pyle" , since Lee Ermy's been used as an example before.
I'm one of those people that gets a lot of results from getting angry and setting out to prove someone wrong, so it works for me. I would never use that on the more sensitive people in my life because it would break them.Last edited on 22 Aug 2011 03:57 pm by Tankgirl
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MichelleP
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 25 Mar 2009 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 717 |
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Posted: 23 Aug 2011 03:28 pm |
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I think it goes without saying what I think about the tough love forum. CPH was always a positive place, a place that I knew I could go to and talk with other like minded people all striving to reach their fitness goals. A peaceful place! It is true that people don't have to visit the tough love forum here but even knowing that it's here and that people are being bad mouthed and insulted there just bothers me.
@Tankwoman - I may be mistaken but haven't you lost 100 pounds without the help of tough love?
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Tankgirl
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: 23 Aug 2011 05:35 pm |
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| Yup- had lots of support and love from my family and hubby. I'm participating in the experiment to see if I can learn anything that would help my best friend. I can't see her as an intentional glutton though- and I'd sure never treat her as one. The gluttony idea just doesn't hold up when you start to eat healthier because you can, and if Dr Fuhrman's right, should eat massive quantities of vegetables and lose weight.
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 24 Aug 2011 08:37 am |
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Clarification about Dr Fuhrman's approach: whilst it is true that a shorthand of his eating style reads "unlimited raw vegetables, unlimited green vegetables, unlimited beans, unlimited fruit"
These are then further clarified (for maximum health) as eating when truly hungry and not over-eating
Having had the opportunity to interact with him on his 'Ask The Doctor' forum, I know for a fact that he thinks my 3lb-4lb salad is in over-eating territory. Maybe that's why I feel the urge to nap afterwards!
This is better than how I was eating before, it may not be perfect but it is a matter of degrees.
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Tankgirl
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: 24 Aug 2011 01:05 pm |
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Sorry Nir, this one's going to go off on a few tangents: I'm reading ETL, and trying to incorporate what I can with other diet ideas that I'm following.
1.)Because of an experiment I'm following, I'm trying to eat 1900 calories a day. 30-60% of that would be 570-1140 of green vegetables per day. That's a lot of spinach!
I'm guessing here- is his "beans and greens" plan a very low calorie diet? Is that why people take off so much weight so quickly?
2.) The "toxic hunger" I don't understand. I do a weekly Intermittent fast and even after 36-40 hours of water fasting I don't feel the "throat hunger" he's talking about. Is that something that one would feel only after detoxing from meat and dairy? I haven't eaten any other foods he wouldn't approve of for over a year.Last edited on 24 Aug 2011 01:05 pm by Tankgirl
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 24 Aug 2011 01:46 pm |
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Hi there.
1)
Yes lots of people are a bit confused over that pyramid ( http://www.drfuhrman.com/images/foodpyramid/foodpyramid-large.png )
VEGETABLES* 1/2 raw and 1/2 cooked, 30-60% of calories
*Excludes white potatos. Emphasis on green vegetables.
The emphasis is on green vegetables (and indeed dark leafy green vegetables) but this category still includes the other sub-categories of vegetables such as:
- NON-green vegetables like tomatos, onions, mushrooms, eggplant, summer squash etc.
- starchy vegetables such as carrots, winter squash, corn, sweet potatos (notice that WHITE potato has been specifically excluded - it is so poorly thought of it has been grouped with whole-grains)
Dr Fuhrman has modifications of his ultra-healthy diet for pregnant ladies, those who need to gain weight, those who are athletes (or at a pinch, body builders).
Newsletter No. 42 (2010)
What's Inside: In this issue,
Fueling Vegan Athlete - Basis facts Research and athlete success show vegan diet can be ideal...
Advantages of a Nutritarian Diet - Rich in micronutrients, diet enhances immune function...
Special Considerations - Either supplement or get blood tests to ensure sufficiency...
Calorie and Protein Needs - What to include and what to avoid in a diet for success...
Sample Daily Menu - This one-day eating plan gives insight into meal planning...
If you go to his homepage and join his mailing list you can download one free newsletter
So yes, for some people the recommendations change, for example weight-loss recommendations are only 1 ounce of nuts and seeds (in addition to 1 tablespoon flax seeds) but for those with other needs there can be more nuts and seeds and avocados, more grain etc.
On the other hand there is a sample diet in the book for 1600 calories (to show how much nutrition you can get at that level).
You seem to be asking whether Dr Fuhrman's diet is a disguised very low calorie diet, the answer is that Dr Fuhrman does not say anywhere "you must eat at least your unadjusted RMR", he does endorse fast and yest safe fat loss for those who need it, (controversially) he believes that there is nothing wrong with slowing down your metabolic rate (and this won't be a problem if you continue eating this way) so unlike JSABD, if you interacted with Dr Fuhrman directly and gave him your stats he might suggest that you could safely eat less whilst focusing on nutrient density (he uses your weight to adjust your food - if you became too underweight then he'd recommend more food!).
having said that, I want to re-emphasize doing ETL on 1900 still works (and might be more appropriate for someone who is exercising etc.) you just won't be a "lost it very very fast" success story.
2)
the true hunger (mouth and throat hunger) is a very SUBTLE signal, so if you are still feeling toxic hunger symptoms they will be more frequent and 'louder' and yes they could take a while to go away (and remember that when you lose fat you are potentially releasing more toxins into the bloodstream, I'm a bit vague here but maybe that still counts as toxic environment).
I eat too much to achieve true hunger before each meal but if I've decided I'm skipping breakfast (yesterday the first thing I ate was just before noon) then I will feel some hunger and it will be a mouth and throat sensation but (in my case at least) it is a FLEETING feeling. I remember feeling it yesterday at some point between 8-9am whilst away from home. And then it wasn't there again.
Before I got the handle of the concept of mealtimes I grazed all day, never felt it all (unless I had a fasted blood test or had to fast for general anaethestic)
Dr Fuhrman ideally recommends 3 or maybe 2 meals a day, no snacking. (Exception for diabetics etc.)
Any more questions let me know
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Tankgirl
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: 24 Aug 2011 02:55 pm |
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Thanks Nir. Yup, it's true. While reading ETL I have to wonder about the agenda, especially since finding that he's PCRM spokesperson. It's the low-carber/paleo in me.
This is how low-carbers/paleos/primals tend to see CSPI/PCRM folks, no offense intended, just for the sake of humor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V3rEvZY9nI.
Even if I increase the fruit and starchy vegetables, I'm leaving grains alone for good. I have allergies and avoiding them seems to mean the difference between minor headaches I can shake off, and missing work because I'm throwing up - they feel and act very much like what I've read about migraines.
I'm not in that much of a hurry to lose the weight. 8-10 pounds a month is just fine- heck, 8 pounds per month will mean I'm 165 by Christmas! I'm still dealing with the culture shock of going from "freakishly obese" to "invisible fatty" to "average fatty", and it's taking a while to wrap my head around how differently people treat you at different weight levels.Losing it at this rate gives me time to confront the issues that were a part of putting the weight on to begin with.
Thanks for the advice. At the moment I'm doing about 45 min on the bike just work and back 5 days a week, and more if I run errands on it+ 25 min elliptical and a weight training circuit ( trying to build up to more)5 days a week. I've noticed I need to stay above 1000 calories just to keep the bike moving. Getting lightheaded and dreamy on a bike ride is just scary.Last edited on 24 Aug 2011 04:32 pm by Tankgirl
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Tankgirl
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Jul 2011 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: 24 Aug 2011 03:11 pm |
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Sylphide,
I get the health arguments, but there always seems to be an undercurrent with the people that have that really strong disgust/ disdain for overweight/obese people. It seems to boil down to "ewwww I don't like to look at fatties they make me feel bad/scared/grossed out/depressed"
It always makes me wonder -what do they think we owe them?
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 24 Aug 2011 07:05 pm |
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Tankgirl wrote:
Thanks Nir. Yup, it's true. While reading ETL I have to wonder about the agenda, especially since finding that he's PCRM spokesperson. It's the low-carber/paleo in me.
This is how low-carbers/paleos/primals tend to see CSPI/PCRM folks, no offense intended, just for the sake of humor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V3rEvZY9nI.
Ha ha. Here was me agnoising about this very subject back in July 2006.
Dr Fuhrman may not eat meat himself but he's very clear that a small amount of animal products is OK, in fact he would tell certain specific groups (for example the very old) to introduce some meat. Consequently some ethical vegans shun him in favour of other doctors who prescribe an entirely-vegan diet (even if it is not as healthy as his)
Also I like that he has no issue with changing his mind when science changes.
Even if I increase the fruit and starchy vegetables
and don't forget raw seeds, nuts and avocados
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Tankgirl
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: 24 Aug 2011 07:19 pm |
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currently doing 1 oz of nuts a day- one of the few healthy things that are easily portable. Just had an avocado for breakfast and lunch.
Are cocoa nibs categorized as nuts?
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 25 Aug 2011 06:25 am |
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going by http://www.ludlownutco.co.uk/en/shop/superfoods/product/CacaoNibs
protein 12% fat 83.4% (saturates 48.5%) carb ~3.4%
well cocoa nibs (and cocoa in general) is a lot higher in saturated fat than a typical nut, but having said that Dr Fuhrman does use both cocoa and coconut in his recipes.
Although peanuts are technically legumes they have a similar nutritional profile to nuts and in the same vein I guess cocoa nibs slot into that category too but probably best not to 'over-do' them too much.
I found myself a lot less excited about my cocoa powder now that I am no longer combining it with artificial sweetener.
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Tankgirl
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: 25 Aug 2011 01:37 pm |
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I had the opposite reaction to coca nibs, I found out I liked them so much, I stopped eating sweetened chocolate. They're very tasty with chili powder on them. I weigh/track everything so I'm definitely careful.
Last edited on 25 Aug 2011 02:18 pm by Tankgirl
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MichelleP
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 25 Mar 2009 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 717 |
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Posted: 25 Aug 2011 01:47 pm |
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" I'm still dealing with the culture shock of going from "freakishly obese" to "invisible fatty" to "average fatty", and it's taking a while to wrap my head around how differently people treat you at different weight levels."
@Tankwoman - that was something that I definitely noticed while losing a large chunk of weight ,and it is hard trying to wrap your head around it. I really feel for the as you would call them "freakishly obese" because I know how cruel people are to them and I know how unhappy it can feel to be so large, but at the same time, now that I'm quite a bit smaller then I used to be, I do feel somewhat disgusted with them too. Even still I would never be intentionally cruel or rude to them or think they were any less of a human for being fat.
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Tankgirl
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Jul 2011 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: 25 Aug 2011 02:22 pm |
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| I think I'm around my super-morbidly obese co-workers so much that it seems normal. For me it's more anger than disgust because of the way the company I work for literally feeds into the problem. Last edited on 25 Aug 2011 02:38 pm by Tankgirl
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Bamagirly
Senior Member
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Posted: 26 Aug 2011 04:56 pm |
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| What's an invisible fatty?
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Tankgirl
Distinguished Member
| Joined: | 1 Jul 2011 |
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| Posts: | 538 |
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Posted: 26 Aug 2011 06:20 pm |
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for me it was about 260-220. Not so huge that I attracted attention, but ignored for the most part. Looked past,it was like I didn't exist.I'd be lying if I said it wasn't comfortable. I felt like a snail in my shell.
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